November 8, 2023 · 33 min
Dog Daddy, Part 2: Zak George calls out animal abuse masquerading as dog training
Zak George, one of the most influential dog trainers of the 21st century, has been using his large virtual platform to bring attention to the problematic methods being used by the Internet-famous dog trainer known as Dog Daddy.
Zak and Annie discuss the origins of this work, his efforts to get his followers to picket Dog Daddy's events, and more.
Annie also talks about why the conversation about whether or not it is advisable to use force in dog training feels especially important right now.
Find Zak George on Instagram or Youtube
Listen to previous episodes about Dog Daddy
The SFTD origin story in "How We Got By" (Plus: Enter to win a "Hot Dog Trainer" Mug)
Dog Daddy, Part 1: The face of modern "bad" dog training
Karen Pryor's daughter Gale's article about her mother's dementia
My scientist mother has recorded how dementia affects her brain
Annie is on Instagram at @annie.grossman
Transcript
This transcript was made automatically from the audio, so it may contain small errors.
Hey everyone, Annie Grossman here. I am excited to bring you my conversation today with Zak George, a giant in the world of good dog training online. For many years he's been making really clear, snappy, informative videos on how to Train your dog to do everything from tricks to walking on a loose leash, whether you have a puppy or an older dog. I highly recommend looking up his stuff. Find him on Instagram at Zak George and on YouTube where he has something like 4 million subscribers.
He also has the number two best-selling book on dog training on Amazon. Don't make me tell you who has the number one dog training book on Amazon. But today I am not really talking to him about his training as much as I am talking to him about how he has taken a stand against one social media star who calls himself a dog trainer, someone known as Dog Daddy. And I really admire him for going out on a limb and calling this guy out for being no good because I think it's a really hard thing to do. It's a hard thing probably in any profession to stand up and point your finger at someone else who is doing something similar to you, making dog training videos on YouTube, say, or running a dog training facility in your neighborhood and It's hard to get up there and say, this person is a charlatan.
This person does not know what they're talking about. This person is doing more harm than good. The reason it's hard is because it sounds like sour grapes. It sounds like you're jealous. I have a whole folder in my inbox devoted to emails that I've gotten from people who've read things that I've written before.
About Cesar Millan and are angry and are letting me know that I am just jealous of his success as a dog trainer and jealous at his ability to train dogs because my skills will never approach his. Now, I don't think I'm jealous, but I don't know. It just, it doesn't, like the response of being like, no, I'm not jealous. I'm just more informed. I think it can sort of make you...
Sound like a jerk. And if this is what you're doing for a living, there are probably better ways to spend your energy and time than to try and take down some other person. But Zak George is doing it. He is committed to it. He has been organizing rallies all over the world at Dog Daddy events to try and get them shut down.
And to try and let people know that this is not what dog training should look like. But just two quick things before I share the interview. I wanted to mention that we are still taking applications for our professional course through the end of this month. You can apply at schoolforthedogs.com slash pro. The other thing I wanted to mention is I just wanted to acknowledge what a difficult time this is to be a human being.
With everything that's happening in Israel right now, I honestly feel like maybe I should be talking about nothing else. And yet, at the same time, I feel a kind of extra fire inside of me to talk about dog training and to point out what I see as abuse and to challenge others to try and experiment with their dogs to try and see if they can change behavior. Without force, without coercion. If you've listened to this podcast before, you probably know that one of my favorite books is Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. Don't Shoot the Dog is about how to change behavior using positive reinforcement, and it is not a dog training book.
It is a book about all of animal behavior, including human behavior. And you know, it's interesting, the title, Don't Shoot The Dog. The title refers to a part about how you could deal with a difficult neighbor, a neighbor who has a dog who is barking. Karen Pryor goes through lots of different ways you could stop the behavior of barking. One way you shouldn't stop the behavior of barking, you shouldn't shoot the dog.
Now, it is of course incredibly reductive to compare what is going on with Israel to a story about someone with a neighbor who has a barky dog. However, I don't think it's so crazy to think about that term, don't shoot the dog, as something we should all aspire to follow. Be trying to use as little force as possible against others because it leads to bad places. And I don't feel like I can do anything at all about what's going on in the Middle East. I feel completely out of control, but I feel like maybe, maybe...
I can help someone figure out that they don't need to use force on their dog. A dog training shouldn't be about using force. Training without force, as Bob Bailey says, is simple, but it's not easy. Fortunately, we have these really willing practice subjects in our homes, these ridiculous creatures who want nothing more than to lick our toes even after we've been total jerks to them. So I just wanted to put that out there, that feeling I have on the one hand of Why am I talking about dog training right now?
And on the other hand, this feeling of like, this is an incredibly important thing to be talking about because I really believe if you can be a good dog trainer, you can become a better person overall. You can become a person who has ideas of how to deal with the neighbor without shooting their dog. So there you have it. Peace, love, and dog training. I'm Zak George.
I'm a dog trainer. I've been doing this 17, 18 years, I guess closer to 18 now. You know, I started off doing frisbee competitions. I come from the dog sports world, which I'm very appreciative of because it really introduced me to positive reinforcement training early and really showed me the power of it because you can't make a dog do a lot of those elaborate tricks when you're doing performances. I performed all over the country for a few years.
I've written a couple of books, had a couple of TV shows and now I make YouTube videos about dog training. How would you describe the kind of dog training you do to someone perhaps unaware that dog training is not just kind of one monolithic thing? Well, I mean, isn't that the thing? That is the big issue that I think you are trying to expose, I'm trying to expose, and many others are trying to scream from the rooftops in this industry right now, is that some people think of dog training as just physical positions of a dog, and that is what matters, and they disregard the emotional state of the dog. And as far as I'm concerned, you know...
We need to ask ourselves, how do we want the dog to feel? And that'll take care of the rest. I mean, if you're putting your dog in the right mindset, it becomes much easier to communicate with them. But too often, we see so many gimmicky methods. I was listening to your podcast earlier on this, actually.
I didn't get through it all because we had a lot going on. But I was hearing a lot of the points you were making, and I couldn't agree more. That there are just so many antiquated, outdated methods that are so mainstream. And it just points to the need to... Expose this industry in a more public way so the public understands that they're being misled because they're deeply confused about what modern dog training looks like right now.
So do you tend to call yourself a positive reinforcement trainer? Yeah, I mean, I like to consider myself a positive reinforcement trainer, using principles from applied animal behavior and things like that, that don't rely on punishment, intimidation, fear, that really focus on just using the latest and greatest in behavior science to the best of my ability, of which I'm learning something new every single day. So that, yeah, yeah, that's what I would call myself, I guess. You have been sort of the superhero in the world of dog training recently who has swooped down to inform everybody that there is kind of a villain. I know I'm turning it into like a kind of comic book story, which of course it's not, but you describe the Lex Luthor in the story.
That alliteration to his name, Dog Daddy, actually kind of sounds like a comic book villain. I mean, it's pretty cartoonish if it wasn't so serious. I get what you're saying. Yeah, Dog Daddy is the most problematic dog trainer in the public eye right now. You know, I think we positive reinforcement trainers have really been doing our best to ignore this, and plus it's so triggering to watch these abusive dog training methods propagated and promoted to the mainstream public.
And, you know, it just it's gotten to a point where it's like we can't ignore this anymore. We have to call out abusive dog training methods where we see them and do our best to help the public understand this is not how you train dogs anymore. It never really was a good way to train dogs, but we definitely know better ways at this point in 2023. Tell me how you first came across Dog Daddy. I've known about him for years.
I mean, I've known about him for 10 plus years on the internet. And I've just hoped that the public would see through the abuse because he's, you know, he's had his account suspended zillions of times on various social networks. So I guess I'd hoped he would get the hint. But it just got to a point where so many of my colleagues were reaching out to me on social media, you know, other dog trainers and stuff who were like, is there anything we can do here to bring attention to this, to try and help the public? Because that really is our interest as competent dog trainers is to advise the public in responsible ways.
And so that just... You know, it was just hearing those rumblings in the background of people saying something needs to be done here. And I agree completely that something needs to be done. So I'm like, yeah, we'll jump in. Let's send a serious message, not only to him, but to let the public know that there's something deeply wrong in this industry right now.
It's multifaceted, I would say. You're going to have some people who are simply naive and they see, whoa, dog is acting wild and crazy, even if triggered by him. And he yanks and cranks the dog until the dog is not acting crazy. And so that is impressive to the naive person, to some people. That's one facet.
Others are, you know, you're going to have some people who have no problem with violence towards animals. And they're just like, yeah, they just seem to enjoy that as entertaining content because, you know, they don't understand the deep complexities and emotional systems of a dog. You know, yeah. I imagine those are a couple of the big reasons. I'm sure there are many other reasons.
There's toxic masculinity, which really floods our industry, unfortunately, which values punishment culture, which is a big problem in our industry as well, because most of the top dog trainers out there, not all, but most, are going to be guys just pushing around a dog, thinking it makes them look tough, I guess. I'm not really sure, but it's tragic. Have you seen anyone who has been in the limelight like that who's made a change? Well, Victoria Stilwell started off, you know, that's true. I mean, you know, she's a great and I love Victoria and she's amazing now and she's become something amazing and she'll be the first to tell you that she started off with not the best training methods.
She's never been like abusive or bad or anything. I don't want to put her in that category at all. I mean, I'm a fan, to be clear, of Victoria Stilwell and all that she's done. And she's one of the best leaders we have in the industry. But yeah, you asked who's made a change.
And she comes to mind as a high profile person. But generally, people like to, it seems as though people dig their heels in. And that's really unfortunate. I know I've certainly been more aversive in the past. While I've never used choke chains or prong collars or electric shock collars or things like that, I, you know, I mean, I've definitely been more no focused in the past.
You know, things like that. So I'd like to think that I've changed quite a bit. So how would you describe Dog Daddy followers? His followers... Aren't as much the problem because they're just assuming he's an expert.
They're assuming that he's actually got some special knowledge, which he, by every bit of evidence I can see, he does not. He just does old school scare the crap out of a dog until they stop moving and cause that success. I would say it's just a symptom that they're just deeply confused and they need, you know, and a huge part. Now, some people just like the violence towards animals, which is really unfortunate. But people who actually think this is the way to approach dogs, I understand why.
Early in my career, I would have assumed, yeah, well, aggressive dogs, if they're being aggressive, you got to use those tougher methods on them. I totally get it. Like, I remember thinking that in the first few months of being a dog trainer. When I first started becoming a professional and then, of course, learning very quickly, no, that doesn't address underlying causes. And this is what the public doesn't realize.
You don't bring about new behavior from the outside in. You bring it about from the inside out if you're looking for meaningful change. And it's a frustrating point. It's tough to get out there, but that is the right answer. Cesar Millan has had a career that has legitimately lasted two decades in the public eye.
Why not him? Oh, hey, I've gone after Cesar Plenty in the past personally and tried to make the public aware of it. I mean, I've written articles, you know, and I agree. I mean, he has done more damage to the dog training field than any human that I've ever been aware of, incredibly. And it's not personal.
It's not even personal against him. I'm sure he's a great guy, nice guy. I don't know. But yeah, when you're sitting there talking about... Alpha Dominance Theory is being an appropriate way to go.
And you're talking about just have the energy and jerk your dog around by the leash. This is incompetent advice to be giving to the public when there are so much more so much more valid advice that can be received by the public out there. So it's it's just tragic that someone in that position hasn't gone through the effort to better themselves. Here he has a great opportunity. He's got the fame.
And now if he could just get his training methods right, he could actually do a lot of good. But what do we see? Heels dug in. We're always seeing those heels dug in from so many people who don't want to evolve on it. I mean, I personally love it when people evolve, when people change things.
I find that to be a virtue when I see that in someone. And it speaks to a problem in our culture, I think, that seems to frown upon. Changing your mind. This problem is multifaceted in the dog training field. There are some people who just insist I'm going to be painful to my dogs.
I don't care what you say. We talked about the toxic masculinity that permeates this industry. There's punishment culture. There's, I mean, there's all sorts of political influences. So you have to dismantle each one of these facets to address this issue.
Good luck. So tell me the story of the last few months with you going online, really sort of standing on your soapbox about Dog Daddy. Yeah, exactly. That's essentially what I did. Because, you know, he's getting, you know, some momentum out there online, which in and of itself would be fine if he was- He's literally traveling the world.
Well, yes, yes. He's doing his classes and stuff like that. And so we stood up, we brought attention, we put some clips together of his abusive dog training, made the public aware of it. And we rallied a good part of the public all around the world. We kept him from getting into- Rome, Italy, the UK, Australia.
He didn't even attempt to go to those places after we started protesting his events in the United States is a bit easier for him. So that's that's unfortunate. And that's what we're raising awareness around. But yeah, he you know, I was mad before, but then he posted a video on TikTok saying I sent someone to poison his dog. So I was like, oh, hell no.
And And just, I don't even know if you saw that, his TikTok account was suspended almost immediately after that as well, because obviously it's untrue. But, so, you know, he tried to get personal with me there, and I mean, I would still be going at it either way, but that certainly makes it a little bit easier when someone goes after your character like that too. Has he reached out to you directly and personally? Have you ever met him? No, and yeah, I have no interest in really having a conversation with someone like that.
He's beyond conversation. He's out there abusing dogs. He's not even at the level of having a conversation with, as far as I'm concerned. He's a complete charlatan in our industry, selling snake oil to the public. And that's true of others as well.
You know, it's just he's... Maybe not bright enough to realize he shouldn't post that on the internet because I believe my sense is 30% of dog trainers out there just in the real world are training like that. Maybe it's more. Do you have a sense? I mean, I don't have any scientific data.
There's a lot of dog trainers using abusive dog training methods that go unseen. A friend, a longtime School For The Dogs employee is doing her PhD and just last year wrote a paper where she surveyed the language on different dog trainer sites to try and top dog trainers throughout the country to try and decipher what they're doing based on the language that they use, which we also know can be misleading. Yeah, I'm familiar with a study like that. Are there other dog trainers that you think we should be worried about? I mean, yes, yes.
Anyone who's not using modern methods, anyone who doesn't understand counter conditioning and desensitizing and catering to the dog's emotional state, the public should be concerned about. And that, unfortunately, I mean, how many dog trainers even know what applied animal behavior is? It's not something that's taught to them because there's no requirement to be a dog trainer. So this is definitely one of those industries that... I've made this comparison a lot throughout all of this.
You might be familiar with the commercials from the 50s and 60s, I guess, where doctors were promoting cigarettes. This is one of those issues. We have so-called professional dog trainers saying this is what you should do to a dog when it actually makes the dog worse. You're creating fear that exacerbates issues. So not only is it not even a patch, it doesn't even count as a Band-Aid because it doesn't resolve anything.
It doesn't stop the bleeding. It's like putting a Band-Aid on a broken bone. It hides the broken bone so you can't see it, but it does not address the broken bone. And it can look like success, though, in the length of a TikTok video. Yeah, to the public who doesn't understand the emotional state of the dog, who doesn't understand that this is simply creating a stress response in the dog, causing them to freeze and panic, it can be very misleading.
And that's what we take exception to and what we find so insulting as a dog training community that we have someone trying to pass this off as legitimate behavior modification. No, not on our watch. I mean, you mentioned that how many dog trainers even know what applied behavior... With high behavior science is, I think one thing that frustrates me is that most people don't have any awareness that there is a science of behavior. We learn biology, we learn chemistry, it's a science that is often not addressed at all.
So people go into dog training having no idea, you know, You get into a plane having some idea that has to do with what you covered in physics class. Even if you don't know how to fly the plane, it's within your realm of understanding what's happening. People go into dog training with no idea that there's even something that they could do. Exactly. That's so true.
I don't know if you saw Robert Cabral. He's another YouTube dog trainer recently. Yeah. You don't know about this? This happened a couple of weeks ago.
And he said, I quote, science has no place in dog training. That is a direct quote. You can go to watch him say that. Robert Cabral is an aversive slash red flag dog trainer. He made a whole, because he was in response to all of this controversy that's going on.
And it just exemplifies the point you're making, that people have no idea that behavior is a science and think they can just wing it. What is a red flag dog trainer? I don't know that term. I have a problem with the term balanced dog training because I think it is misleading. Because I think we are the balanced dog trainers in terms of making sure the dog has a balanced life, making sure that we're giving them the right life, making sure that we're not using punishments on them, that we cater to their emotional state.
And the term balanced dog training sounds reasonable, but it's not accurate for these trainers. They are aversive dog trainers. They are red flag dog trainers that the public should be aware of. And that's what I call them. Because I think it's a more accurate way.
Trainers relying on aversives should be referred to exactly as such. Dogs are giving red flags and they're being ignored? No, the dog trainers themselves are a red flag. Like they are red flag dog trainers. Like be aware of these guys.
If they're throwing a tool on a dog and they're choking them out or shocking dogs, those are your red flag dog trainers. Good question. I'm glad you asked. Oh, okay, now I see it. Like, hey, beware of these people.
You know, what's interesting is I feel like most dog trainers I know who have their businesses and whatever, mostly in the U.S., in their areas, there's another dog trainer who is what you would call a red flag dog trainer that they're incensed about. Like, everybody has their pet dog daddy in their community. Yeah, and that, like... In local communities, there's some red flag or aversive dog trainer that's just a real problem. I think that's almost, I think it's most dog trainers, honestly, because in the communities that I travel to, that I go to, can you hear me?
Okay, in the communities that I travel to and go to, like the positive reinforcement trainers who have really taken the time to understand their topics better are in the minority, which makes sense in an unregulated industry. You're gonna have only a minority of people who actually go through the effort to educate themselves on a matter like this. Are you familiar with Jeff Gilman? Jeff Gellman? Oh yeah, huge problem.
This guy, I know, and yes, I'm familiar with him and he's awful. As a dog trainer, I don't know, I can't comment on his character, but. He's not local to me, I don't think, but he's my pet weirdo who I'm like, I can't believe. I can't believe this is a thing where he's wrapping up towels and hitting dogs on the head and calling this dog training. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of crap dog trainers out there.
There certainly are. And these are definitely part of the problem. The bar is so low in this industry. Particularly on social media. So what do we do?
You as, you know, one of the dog trainers who has the biggest social media following out there, followings out there, I mean, is what you're doing working or as, I wouldn't say this, but I think some would say, is it making the problem worse by drawing attention to someone like this? And what can we do? The problem, we've identified the problem. So what is the solution? And I think the solution is quite clear.
Licensure in all 50 states in the United States should be required for dog training and around the world. And that would solve 98% of this problem, provided licensure were based on recommendations from qualified professionals like the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists and, you know, truly competent organizations like that. Public awareness, though, yeah, I mean, I agree. You definitely bring attention to the matter when you talk about it and that you're, you know, you'll inadvertently create fans of this, of these methods as well throughout there. And that's unfortunate.
But I think that it's a net positive overall because public awareness is number one. We're not going to create any change if people don't even understand there's a problem to begin with. Yeah, I think, you know, it helps people realize that there is Do you think licensure is going to happen? I don't know. I think I think yes, at some point.
Does it happen in years or tens of years? I you know, I don't know. I think it's such a because licensure. My understanding is that licensure comes about in various fields due to issues like this. I mean, I would assume the reason that your plumber to be a licensed plumber is because if you do something wrong, you can ruin someone's life savings in the form of their house.
And that can really be a public health and safety risk. And I think that's the same thing with dog training. We have dog trainers out there who are creating a public health and safety risk. Those dogs live in homes with children. Those dogs go in public.
Those dogs have big teeth. It is irresponsible to have someone like Augusto de Oliveira, Cesar Millan, Jeff Gelman, Tom, what's his name? Tom Davis, you know, recommending Robert Cabral, recommending these harsh methods on these dogs, which are very clearly shown to exacerbate issues and never, never address underlying causes. Can you just give people highlights? I mean, I don't want to have like the last few months because it seems like there's been some Yeah, so bottom line is, we've already established he's been around, he's been posting abusive dog training content for some time.
We as a community have gotten fed up with it. I happen to have a decent sized platform in the dog training field, so I decided to devote some time to really making the public aware of it by making videos, showing what's wrong with the methods that he's using, so people understand that. And then of course, we started... Really a very organized protest effort around this. So all of his events he goes to have protests now.
We have critical press coverage on him everywhere he goes. This is all part of raising public awareness. And again, he's just a symptom. There's nothing special about him. Trainers out like him are a dime a dozen.
They're all over the place. He just happens to be one that's in the public eye. Oh, right. Yeah, Pryor is pointing out that like how internationally it's been much easier to stop him because the U.S. has such lax animal welfare laws relative to other places, though they still need work in other places as well.
But we have some catching up to do in this country. But I mean, that's pretty much the bottom line. We've we've really had a grassroots effort centered around raising awareness around problematic dog training methods with him as our Main antagonist in this story. And is it ongoing? Are you going to keep this up?
Yeah. We'll keep this up for the rest of his life. I'm not playing. This is my life's work right now. As much as I love dog training, as much as I love the sciences, I care very deeply about the public getting proper information.
I'm one of these people who believe if you are going to take it upon yourself to advise the public, you better know what you're talking about, or you better be making an effort. And if you do screw up, you better admit it. And make an effort to do better, because it's not fun and games when you're advising the public. It's one thing to train dogs how you will in your own household, which, you know, I'm not supporting abusive dog training methods there either, but it's dramatically exemplified or exaggerated when you start duplicating that and say, hey, public, you should train your dogs like I do, when particularly when those methods do not align with modern behavior science principles. Yeah, and he's training trainers as well.
Yeah, wannabe dog daddies, I know. It's tragic, it really is. And that's the other thing, like these facilities that he goes to are often like wedding venues or third-party venues and they have no idea that, because he doesn't disclose the location until hours before. And so we have to send our protesters out there on short notice. The small business owners are really thrown off by things.
And I do feel bad for them to a degree. But what I'm getting at here is he also occasionally will go to a dog training facility to do one of these workshops, as he did with Blaine Kennels in Blaine, Minnesota. And we called them out publicly big time on that because a dog training facility allowing this guy to come to their To their place, to their local community and educate local members. That is egregious in my mind. I just can't.
Are there other people that you've taken a stand against other than Cesar Millan and Dog Daddy? And do you plan to? I mean, I think right now we have to pick our battles. We can't send everyone everywhere to do everything. And yes, I do believe all of this in time will get hashed out and that we will be bringing attention to them.
Throughout the Dog Daddy controversy, I have been sending messages like this is what's in your future to people who continue to train like this. Yeah, privately I've been talking to them behind the scenes as well. I wouldn't say talking to them, but even through my videos, you know, I mean, this is what people can expect. If you're going to promote abusive dog training methods, you can expect the media to show up at your place. You can expect protesters.
This is where we're going with it. And so we are, you know, we're really organized in terms of getting more and more people involved. We can only do so much ourselves, Bri and I, my wife and partner, as everyone well knows, has been instrumental in helping us organize a lot of this as well. Yeah, it's a team effort. It's not easy work to do.
So yes, as much as I would like to go after every individual high profile problematic dog trainer, resources are limited and we have to gain more resources. So we each need to pick one. You take Dog Daddy. I'll take Jeff Gelman. Hey, I'll back you up.
I'll back you up because unless he's changed, I haven't looked into him lately. From what you're saying, it sounds like he's still pretty problematic. Well, there's a lot of problems out there.
Special thanks to Zak George for joining me. Again, you can find him on YouTube or on Instagram at ZAKGeorge. You should also go ahead and follow at School For The Dogs and come say hi to me at Annie.Grossman. We're doing a giveaway this month of a Hot Dog Trainer mug. You can enter to win it at SchoolForTheDogs.com slash pod.
I mentioned Karen Pryor earlier in the episode. Sadly, Karen has dementia. However, I just read a beautiful piece by her daughter about her experience dealing with her daughter. See you next week.
