Annie sees Dog Daddy live. Also: Get to know Erin Whelan (2020 episode rebroadcast)

Annie went to see Dog Daddy live in New Jersey this weekend and reports back about the odd experience of being in a room where what looked to her like animal abuse seemed didn't seem to bother anyone else.

The episode then includes a rebroadcast of a 2020 interview Annie did with School For The Dogs trainer Erin Whelan. Erin was a professional French Horn Player. Then she adopted a beagle mix named Oliver and enrolled him in Puppy Kindergarten at School For The Dogs. Then she did the School For The Dogs Professional Program. Now, she is a trainer and manager at School For The Dogs. She and Annie discuss switching careers, what it means to teach dogs virtually, human body language, and training as a kind of benevolent con game -- not like Dog Daddy's con!

Dog Daddy Part 1 -- all about DD

Dog Daddy Part 2 -- a conversation w/ Zak George

Transcript

This transcript was made automatically from the audio, so it may contain small errors.

Have you ever been in a room where everyone around you is just nodding along in agreement with something and you're shaking your head like you're the only one there shaking your head and you have to try and figure out whether you should forcibly stop shaking your head? Because you're standing out, should you nod along? Or does it just not matter? Is a head shake okay? I can't actually think of a time that I was in a situation like that before, but I was this weekend because I went to a Dog Daddy training in Ringwood, New Jersey.

And I wanted to tell you a little bit about that today. But I don't want this to become the Dog Daddy critique podcast. So the main chunk of this episode is going to be a re-airing of an episode I did three years ago. With our fabulous trainer, Erin Whelan. And while I hope to have Erin on again soon, I think that this is kind of a good starting place to getting to know Erin and to learning about our professional course for which we are currently taking applications for a January start date.

You can apply at schoolforthedogs.com slash program. And while I'm on the subject of promo, I should mention that we are doing 12 days of giveaways and sales starting December 1st. These will only be for email and Instagram subscribers, so please make sure to join us on Instagram if you want to be kept in the loop about that. We're there at School For The Dogs. Or you can sign up for our email list so we make sure to let you know about these sales.

You can do that at schoolforthedogs.com slash 12, T-W-E-L-V-E, and make sure that we notify you about these sales. Cool things if you sign up there. Okay, now I'm just going to talk for a moment about this event I went to. I want to tell you about it, but you know what? I actually, I really don't want to go on and on about it, so I'm actually going to set a timer here for five minutes, and you're going to hear whatever I can tell you in five minutes.

Okay, ready, set, start. So I am in this Facebook group about Dog Daddy, and I learned there that he was going to be in Ringwood, New Jersey this last weekend. And at first I thought, well, I'll go and protest. And Zak George very kindly put me in touch with someone else. Elsa was planning to go and who did end up protesting.

Maria Wishart, a dog trainer who lives in Pennsylvania and drove three miles to be there. Anyway, I was thinking of protesting and then I thought, you know, actually, I just want to see this. I just want to try and see it to maybe better understand that What he's doing, why he's doing it, and ideally I'd love to see who's there and talk to people who are there. I kind of felt like the journalist in me wanted to witness it. And I kind of in my head, I imagine there'd be kind of like, I don't know, like a break room or something where I could really approach some of the people there.

You had to pay $100 a ticket to be a spectator. And I thought, you know, maybe I can have some conversations and try and... Better understand what the appeal is. So I arrived pretty late and there he was in this place. Oh, it was held at like some kind of stable and I was greeted by what seemed like a security guard at the door who had a list and I wasn't on the list and they had to look me up.

Anyway. Finally, I got in there and there he was in his, you know, whatever designer brand tracksuit and sunglasses and hat along with eight or so dogs in this large ring, each dog with about two, sometimes three people with each dog. And on the side were maybe 20 spectators, some of whom had brought their own folding chairs, but there wasn't really anywhere to sit at all if you didn't have a folding chair. So I just kind of like scritched myself in and got to a corner. And I spent about two hours watching all the stuff that you see in the videos.

Now, I had thought, you know, maybe he has a curriculum, maybe he has some sort of program that he works through during these sessions, and we're only seeing these little clips, but I would say there was zero program. He just kind of went one by one to each dog, to, I mean, I guess each owner, sort of like, what's your problem, let's deal with it, sort of approach, if you could call it that. And he seemed to have sort of categorized dogs who had issues with people and dogs who had issues with dogs. And the whole thing just really had the feeling of something that was being like made up on the spot. The guy did not stop talking.

I mean, I want to tell you about the stuff he did with the dogs, but... Before I tell you about that, let me just say, he didn't stop the entire time. There's my timer. Okay. All right.

Five minutes was unreasonable. I'm going to give myself another five minutes. I'm going to make it six. I think I can get it done in six. Okay.

Six minutes. I couldn't talk to anyone else that was there. I mean, I did, but it was very difficult because there was no break room, like I imagine. There wasn't even a place to sit. And he didn't stop talking.

There was like no down moment. And it was kind of hard to understand what he was saying because of the PA system. But I could understand the words, honestly. But he was speaking so fast and like, you know, like when you understand the words, but the sentence doesn't mean anything or like it doesn't make sense when you put these two sentences together. Like I was trying to write down some of the things he was saying and it just like it all made so little sense to me and was such gibberish that I kind of gave up.

But whatever he said the whole time, all these people were very much nodding along, nodding, nodding, nodding. Now, every dog had on a prong collar and a yellow leash. Oh, I need to tell you about the leashes. So before I went, maybe a few days before, this is another thing that just seems like it's all like a joke. He released, he did this big like launch of his leash.

He released a leash and the leash is a very bright yellow leash and on it is stamped the words Tie Me Up Daddy and he calls it the Tie Me Up Daddy leash and It's actually just a Mendota leash, which is actually kind of a leash I really like. You can find it at schoolforthedogs.com slash Mendota. We sell them. We don't sell the bright yellow one. We don't sell them with the words Time Me Up Daddy on them.

Anyway, all the dogs had on the prong collar and one of the Time Me Up Daddy leashes. And in some cases, the collar was, the leash was like looped around the dog's neck, kind of like, I guess a slip lead style, with the other end on the prong, and people were like holding the sort of loop in between those two things as they were walking these dogs. And... Most of the dogs seemed pretty damn stressed out. Some of them were wearing muzzles, and he basically just yanked these dogs around and instructed other people to yank them around.

I mean, I don't know how to explain it anymore. Plainly than that. And, you know, some people, I should say the most memorable bit was when he tried to put this muzzle on this like young German shepherd who clearly had or probably had never been. Pit Muzzled before, and they got, he like wrestled this dog, like they wrestled each other at one point, he falls down, he's like sitting on the dog, I mean the dog was just terrified, it was awful, it was awful, and I've posted some of the videos of this stuff on my Instagram at Annie.Grossman. Although, I don't even know if you want to go look.

So I've had some people say to me, how could you go and watch this stuff happen and not say anything? Like, how could you handle it? And I think the answer is because I know this stuff is happening. And as awful as it is, there's a way in which I've seen so much of it in my life that I think I've just... And I think in that moment, you know, my way of helping those dogs was witnessing it, observing it, documenting it.

I don't think like me yelling and screaming was going to change anyone's mind about what was going on or how they should be treated. But, you know, I hope that maybe some of those people in that room will one day realize, you know, what good dog training actually looks like. But, you know, it was a really weird experience because it's like being in a room with all these people who think something is totally fine and I didn't, you know. It was uncomfortable in this kind of unusual way and I think part of the reason why I had trouble talking to people in the way that I had hoped to was I realized I had kind of like a crisis of self. Am I there as a journalist?

Am I there to interview these people? Do I tell the truth that I think of myself as something of an advocate, like a dog trading rights advocate or a dog advocate? Do I argue with them? Do I ask them how it's possible they could think this is okay? And the answer is, oh, I'm about to run out of time.

I'm just going to pause this because I'm going to keep going. I don't want the sound to go off. I'll try and hurry up here. The answer is, I didn't know. I was really like frozen, to be honest.

I think I was frozen because it was disturbing to see these things happening in real time and seeing these dogs suffer and know that, you know, Know that there is a better way and that these dogs were all super stressed out to begin with and that nothing was happening to make them any less stressed out and to feel like I was probably the only one in the room who saw anything wrong with what was going on. It was weird to be kind of like rooting for the dogs to win in what seemed like a zero-sum game. Like, I've never been in another situation where I actually kind of wanted a dog to bite someone. I did speak to a couple people there, but in both cases, again, I was so kind of confused about who I was that I just sort of played coy and I didn't say my name or say anything about myself. At one point I was speaking to a woman and I pretended that my phone rang and I had to take a call because I was...

It was awkward. But I spoke to one woman who actually has a tattoo that says Dog Daddy on her arm. And she said she didn't even have a dog, but that she just really, you know, was just so impressed with his story and his magnetism. And that she said something to me like, I think if there was a squirrel in this room right now, the squirrel would just jump in his hand and be eating out of his hand. And I spoke to a man who runs a daycare, a dog daycare in Queens, who said he was just blown away by how much he was learning.

And I said, you know, oh, can you, I said something like, like, like, what's the biggest thing that you've learned or something? Because again, like I, I, I couldn't I couldn't figure out what this guy was trying to impart either like than this is how you yank a dog around while saying leave it. Oh, he said leave it all the time, just constantly saying to the dog, leave it, leave it. Anyway, this guy said to me that he learned that like when you're passing a reactive dog on leash to a new handler to do it like surreptitiously so the dog doesn't notice, which just seemed to me like... Like kind of a red herring of a solution.

Like at least in my opinion, rare is a situation where things are really going to be solved or get a lot worse because of the change of who is at the end of the leash. Like there's a lot of other things we should be considering besides who's holding the leash and whether or not we need to keep it a secret from the dog when we're switching holding the leash to having someone else hold the leash. And especially with these dogs who, you know, I think a lot of Dog Daddy's shtick is about how he's helping these last chance dogs. And I wouldn't say these were last chance dogs. Some of them seem sort of just like a little excited and like not sure what they should be doing, which is, of course, a problem with any kind of punishment based training where you're not Teaching someone what to do or teaching the dog what to do.

Instead, you're just kind of like setting them up for failure and then punishing them when they fail. And you know, not a single treat was given to a dog the whole time that I saw. I didn't even see that there were treats there. When I said to this daycare owner, Why do you think it's not possible to use treats with these dogs? He said, well, these are dogs that would never take treats.

And I thought, yeah, that's because they're in a really stressed out situation, but maybe you could start with the treats and work up to bringing them to a room full of other dogs, full of people. Like a lot of these dogs are city dogs who probably spend a lot of their time on sidewalks or in their apartment and now you have them in a room full of these other dogs in this horse riding ring in a barn. It was really cold. I mean, I was stressed out and I wasn't even wearing a leash. Some of them did bark at other dogs when they walked by.

Some of them, he said, were reactive to people and to prove that he could fix them with, I don't know, his yanks and leave it. At one point, he had a bunch of volunteers go into the middle of the stable and he like led the dogs around the volunteers as if like, look, now these dogs can be around people, which was weird to me because the dogs were like already in this like large pen with all these people without a lot of space between them. Anyway, I said I was going to do five minutes and I didn't finish. Additional five minutes and I've done more. So I'm just going to stop because, like I said, I could go on and on.

I think I was left feeling like I still had a lot of questions about what what it is that is making this guy so able to. To con people. This is a con. And it's funny, actually, because in this episode with Erin, we actually talk about how dog training is kind of a con game, but like in a good way. In a good way in that like you're conning your dog into thinking they're conning you.

So it's like everyone kind of wins. The way I see it. And the only reason why I hesitate to use that word is because it's not like it's a new con. It's not like he's the first con man. He is one of many con men.

And what are con men but salesmen who are selling something that doesn't exist. That's an apparition that isn't real. What's so sad is that in most con situations I can think of, people are the ones who are suffering from their own stupidity exclusively. Sadly, this is a situation where the con is on both the people and the dogs and not in a good way and dogs are getting seriously hurt. Okay, moving on, just wanted to say if you know someone or know someone who knows someone who has brought a dog to a Dog Daddy event like the one I went to this weekend and they're interested in In trying, let's call it a different kind of dog training, get in touch with me, AnnieAtSchoolForTheDogs.com.

I would love to offer those dog owners a complimentary hour-long virtual session to try and address what is going on and help them use less invasive, more effective techniques that Don't cause fear and pain. You can truly train your dog with love and science. Because the other thing I just wanted to mention, I got to stop myself. The other thing I just want to mention is the people I saw there clearly love their dogs. These are dog lovers who want good things for their dogs.

I don't actually think that most people enjoy doing these dickish things to their dogs. I think they just don't know any better. Okay, I'm done now. All right, without further ado, here is my 2020 conversation with Erin Whelan. Let's live with dogs in heart.

Don't need to cause pain if you use your brain. Train your dog with love and science.

Like, I've never been in another situation where I actually kind of wanted a dog to bite someone. I did speak to a couple people there, but in both cases, again, I was so kind of confused about who I was that I just sort of played coy and I didn't say my name or say anything about myself. At one point I was speaking to a woman and I pretended that my phone rang and I had to take a call because I was... It was awkward. But I spoke to one woman who actually has a tattoo that says Dog Daddy on her arm.

And she said she didn't even have a dog, but that she just really, you know, was just so impressed with his story and his magnetism. And that she said something to me like, I think if there was a squirrel in this room right now, the squirrel would just jump in his hand and be eating out of his hand. And I spoke to a man who runs a daycare, a dog daycare in Queens, who said he was just blown away by how much he was learning. And I said, you know, oh, can you, I said something like, like, like, what's the biggest thing that you've learned or something? Because again, like, I, I, I couldn't I couldn't figure out what this guy was trying to impart either like than this is how you yank a dog around while saying leave it.

Oh, he said leave it all the time, just constantly saying to the dog, leave it, leave it. Anyway, this guy said to me that he learned that like when you're passing a reactive dog on leash, To a new handler to do it like surreptitiously so the dog doesn't notice, which just seemed to me like... Like kind of a red herring of a solution. Like at least in my opinion, rare is a situation where things are really going to be solved or get a lot worse because of the change of who is at the end of the leash. Um, and especially with these dogs who, you know, I think a lot of, uh, Dog Daddy's shtick is about how he's helping these last chance dog and dogs.

And, um, I wouldn't say these were last chance dogs. Some of them seemed sort of just like a little excited and like not sure what they should be doing, which is of course a problem with any kind of punishment-based training where you're not teaching someone what to do or not teaching the dog what to do. Instead, you're just kind of like setting them up for failure and then punishing them when they fail. A lot of them just seemed kind of stressed out. Some of them did bark at other dogs when they walked by.

Some of them, he said, were reactive to people and to prove that he could fix them with, I don't know, his yanks and leave it. At one point, he had a bunch of volunteers go into the middle of the stable and he like led the dogs around the volunteers and As if like, look, now these dogs can be around people, which was weird to me because the dogs were like already in this like large pen with all these people without a lot of space between them. Anyway, I said I was going to do five minutes and I did an additional five minutes and now I've done more. So I'm just going to stop. Because like I said, I could go on and on.

I think I was left feeling like I still had a lot of questions about what it is that is making this guy so able to... To con people. This is a con. And the only reason why I hesitate to use that word is because it's not like it's a new con. It's not like he's the first con man.

He is one of many con men. And what are con men but salesmen who are selling something that doesn't exist, that's an apparition, that isn't real. What's so sad is that in most con situations I can think of, people are the ones who are suffering from their own stupidity exclusively. Sadly, this is a situation where the con is on both the people and the dogs and dogs are getting seriously hurt. Okay, moving on, just wanted to say if you know someone or know someone who knows someone who has brought a dog to a Dog Daddy event like the one I went to this weekend and they're interested in In trying, let's call it a different kind of dog training, get in touch with me, Annie at SchoolForTheDogs.com.

I would love to offer those dog owners a complimentary hour-long virtual session to try and address what is going on and help you truly train your dog with love and science. Because the other thing I just wanted to mention, I gotta stop myself. The other thing I just want to mention is the people I saw there clearly love their dogs. These are dog lovers who want good things for their dogs. I don't actually think that most people enjoy doing these dickish things to their dogs.

I think they just don't know any better. Okay, I'm done now. All right, without further ado, here is my 2020 conversation with Erin Whelan. Hello, I am here with Erin Whelan. Did I say it right?

You did. That's very good. I know the H has to be sounded there. It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to.

As long as it's not Whelan, I'm happy. Whelan. And I am super psyched to be talking to you. I've known you for quite a while now. Yeah, it's been over six years.

Yeah. So I, gosh, there's so much to talk about. But why don't you just kind of tell the story of how you ended up at School For The Dogs? We can go from there. Okay, great.

And actually, why don't you start off, sorry, why don't you start off by just explaining what you're doing now at School For The Dogs because you've done, you've been on both sides, the client and staff side, and you've worn a lot of hats on the staff side too, so. Well, yeah, so right now at the moment I am Both an associate trainer and interim day school manager at School For The Dogs. So I work at day school, puppy day school. I do private sessions for puppies and basic manners, adolescence, and day training. I also teach prep school and puppy kindergarten.

Oh my goodness. And describe what day school is for people who aren't familiar. So for day school and puppy day school, those are drop-off training programs. Day school is for adult and adolescent dogs, and puppy day school, it's in the name, guys. It's for puppies.

And during both of those programs, the dogs go through some relaxation. They have the opportunity to play with other dogs if the moment is appropriate. They work on training foundation skills and we also socialize them to a variety of bizarre human objects like skateboards, vacuums, certain scary sounds and things like that. And just generally try to give them the tools that they need to survive in New York City because this is a weird place to be for both humans and dogs, especially. True.

True. So it's – yeah, I describe day school to people as like someone else is going to be your dog's main person for this period of time and that person happens to be a really great dog trainer.

Yeah. That's great. Yeah, it's kind of like – it's like a class but you as the dog owner don't need to be there. I also sometimes describe it as like what daycare should be, right? Yeah, like a very, very, I mean, I hate to call it a very high level daycare, but I mean, it does have that appeal to it, certainly.

I mean, we do, of course, want all of our day school clients to be involved in private training on the side with us so that they can sort of reinforce all the work that we do at day school. But it is nice, I think, for them to... Have, you know, a couple hours where they know that their dog is going to be in good hands, learning good things, and reinforcing a lot of good habits and behaviors. And they don't have to do anything. Yeah, and they're, like, doing stuff the whole time.

They are doing stuff the whole time. Yeah, and they're, like, yeah, and it's almost, like, probably more tiring because it's only, like, three to five hours, depending, but they're probably... More tired out by, you know, the training that they do during that short period than they would be, you know, at twice, at daycare for twice that amount of time. Yeah, just all that mental work that they do. So let's talk about younger Erin.

Yeah. Who was a French horn player. She was. Heaven forbid. Yeah.

Do you still play sometimes? You know, I don't. And in fact, I actually took my French horn back to my parents' house recently because it was taking up space, which in New York City is very valuable. I know. You probably weren't charging it rent.

No, it really wasn't. And it wasn't contributing to my rent in any way. So I was not earning rent with it being in my apartment. No, I have not played in over a year, I would say, on a tour that I went on. But yeah, it's just... How did you get into playing French horn?

I'm guessing it was like when you were a kid? Yeah, so I started playing French horn. I wanted to start in fourth grade, but there were no school instruments available. So I started in fifth grade. Why French Horn?

So when I was in third grade, our band teacher, shout out to Mrs. Moody, you rock. She did a demonstration for the school of all of the different band instruments that you could choose from. Which is like such a great way to get kids involved in bands. And she herself was a French horn player.

So needless to say, when she demoed the French horn, it sounded amazing. And I heard it and I was just like, oh my God, that's it. I want to do that. That's it. I'm going to play that.

And I just, I totally fell in love with the sound of it. And I think I was 14 when I decided I wanted to be a professional musician. Wow. Yeah. I went to music school at Rutgers and...

Were you in a marching band? I was in a marching band in high school and I hated every second of it. So they made me drum major, which is what you do when someone hates marching band as much as I did. Oh, I don't even know what the drum major does. The drum major is the person who conducts the marching band.

Oh, okay. So you're like Professor Harold Hill in The Music Man. Basically, yeah, that was me. Walking backwards. Did I do any?

No, I stood on a platform, like a really tall ladder and just conducted this group of high schoolers. What was your favorite thing to play on the French horn? Oh, that's a really good question. I don't know that I had a favorite piece that I like to play. Or genre?

I really like the romantic period because I'm a sap and I like really passionate, emotional music. So... Richard Strauss was my favorite composer, and I liked to play a lot of his music because it was very, like, emotional, just like me.

Well, if you're emotional, you're the perfect amount emotional. Well, thank you. You've never struck me as someone who's overly emotional. I do all my emoting in private. You are welcome.

As any polite person should. Did you have dogs when you were a kid? I did. I had a really amazing mutt whose life in our family predated my existence, and she lived until I was about seven. She set the bar really high.

And then we had a brief encounter with a beagle for about a month. Not a great match for our family. He went to live on a farm, which is not a euphemism. He did, in fact, go to live on a farm and he was very happy. And then we had a short-haired collie who used to hurt our families during parties.

That was really fun. Yeah. And that was the last dog I had until I adopted my little muffin Oliver here. Yeah. So how did Oliver end up in your life?

So Oliver ended up in my life. I adopted with an ex-partner of mine. It was just the time in our lives where we thought, yeah, a dog sounds good. I had really wanted one for a long time and we were pretty stable at that point. And I thought, yeah, this is the time.

So we adopted... Oliver, I knew I wanted to adopt a dog because that was really all I had ever known. And I would have rather paid like a $250 adoption fee rather than $4,000 for a dog. So we adopted Oliver and... It was, I think I can probably say- Where did you adopt him from?

Did you purposefully get a beagle type dog? You know what? I actually, because we had that brief encounter with a beagle when I was a kid, we were in possession of a beagle for about a month who had previously belonged to some friends of ours. It's not like we just found this dog and then gave him up. We did like a trial.

They were trying to re-home him because he needed more space. Did not work out with our family, so he went to live somewhere else. But because we had had this negative experience, he was a resource guarder, he bit my mom, he got off the leash with me and ran away from me. Why was I nine years old walking a dog? That's a conversation for another day.

But because of our experience with Buster the Beagle, I specifically did not want a beagle type dog. And I, in fact, had seen Oliver. Don't tell him. Cover your ears, baby. I had seen him on Last Chance Animal Rescue's website.

And I went, no, he looks too much like a beagle. So I went for this other dog. His name was Huck, who looked like kind of like a... I don't know, he had these like bat ears, but I think it was just the angle of the picture. He just looked adorable.

So I asked about him and the rescue told me that he had already been adopted, but would I like to look at his brother, Oliver? So I was like, well, he is pretty cute. And that is how I ended up with a beagle type dog. It was not intentional, but I would be hard pressed to own another type of dog later in life, I think. What led you to Last Chance Rescue?

Honestly, I think it was a specific dog. It was. His name was Pepe. He was a, he looked like a jackal. He was like a brindle, like French bulldog chihuahua mix or something crazy.

I honestly think they call anything a chihuahua mix so that people will just adopt them because they don't think they're going to get too big. But he ended up not being a great fit because he didn't like kids. And I worked with kids at the time. I was already approved by them. We had already paid an application fee, and I didn't want to do that with eight other rescues just to get denied, so I just kept looking at the dogs that they had.

I actually really liked Last Chance. They bring dogs from the South. Oliver's from South Carolina. They have a sanctuary down there for animals that can't be adopted out. They keep them on this beautiful farm that they have.

And then the rest of the dogs that they bring up here live in foster homes, which I think is so important for those first, you know, especially with puppies for those first few weeks of their lives. Yeah, sure. So what was it like bringing home the wonderful Oliver? Oh, it was hilarious. I literally rocked up to his foster mom's home with like a collar and a leash and I just like leashed him up and I was like, let's go, buddy.

And he looked at me like, what's a leash? Yeah. It was just such, it was so funny. I had done so much research. I had read all the books.

I had watched all the videos and I still knew really like nothing. Where were you getting your information? So I think like a lot of people in my generation was a total Cesar Millan disciple because I didn't know any different. You're not? You're not anymore?

You know, I'm not, oddly enough. We do not subscribe to pseudoscience at School For The Dogs. 100% now. But I ended up, I actually, you know, I read one of his books and it was one of the best things I ever did because it was, I can't remember the name of the book, but it was a book in which he consults with, I do give him credit for doing this, he consults with a lot of other dog trainers from different training backgrounds. To give like multiple perspectives on dog training, which I thought was great.

And I discovered in that book, Dr. Ian Dunbar, who completely changed everything, like blew everything out of the water that I thought I knew about dog training. And I realized that there was such a better way to communicate with my dog than trying to intimidate or coerce them into doing what I wanted. And that was, yeah, that was kind of what led me to positive reinforcement training. Thanks, Cesar.

Yeah, that's actually really cool. Yeah. I wonder, I have to look up which book that is. I've heard about this before. I don't know if it's because you told me about it or someone else, but that is a cool thing.

Although it doesn't seem like he consulted all these people and then was like a changed man. No, definitely not. But I did at least give him credit for being like... You know, here's a lot of different techniques. Find what works for you.

And he did even admit in the book, like, when I, because he had this meeting with, you know, Ian Dunbar and he showed him kind of how to get his dog to work for, like, just a tennis ball. Oh, really? Hey, come here. You were doing so good. Come here.

Thank you.

But, yeah, he definitely did not, I don't think, change any of his idea a lot. Ideologies after that encounter, doesn't sound like. So you and I started working together, I think, pretty soon after you got Oliver. Indeed. You started right around when we were in, I think, our first storefront studio, our second studio total.

Am I right? It was the small one on you, Second Street? It was. I think it was still what is now the acupuncture place, I think, was School For The Dogs, right? Yeah.

That was where I was, yeah, as a client. Yeah. And how did you come to School For The Dogs? Because you live pretty far away. I do.

I live very far up on the west side on like almost Washington Heights. And this is something to which I have to give credit to my former partner because he actually found School For The Dogs. It wasn't me, man. He found you guys in a Google search, I think. And it just, you know, we read the reviews of what everyone was saying and it seemed like you were the best in the city and we wanted the best.

So we did, I don't think Kate remembers this, but Kate did our initial appointment. When Oliver was a little squish. And then we did what was then I think called puppy socialization class.

When it was like by color, the classes were color coded. Right. Because we have different, we used to have it like modular. So yeah, like linear, but of course that's changed. It is.

It has changed. I did like the colors, but I also like the linear model. But yeah, it was an awesome experience. He had learned sort of a lot ahead of time because I had done a lot of work with him, but I just thought it was just such a valuable experience for him and for me in particular because it really helped solidify this is kind of what I wanted to be doing with my life. Really?

So early on with training with him, what about it appealed to you? I really... What about it appealed to me? I just, I don't know. It was just something that clicked for me in a way that nothing else really ever had.

And I just loved learning about behavior and learning about how I could shape. My dog's behavior in a way that was really elegant and kind of nuanced, but didn't take a lot of effort and was really fun for both of us. I just thought it was so powerful and I felt like it gave me and him a relationship that was really based on trust, like mutual trust. And I just really wanted to give that to other people. I think that's something that really motivates me as a dog trainer is to be able to help people communicate.

With their animals in a way that they didn't know was possible. Well said. Thanks. You had also worked with horses though growing up. Am I wrong?

I know you are absolutely correct. I rode horses for about eight and a half years until I was around 14. I competed early on, but that got really expensive. So I just kind of rode recreationally. And they are definitely my...

My first loves in the animal kingdom and I look forward to working with them again one day. I think it's interesting that horseback riding as a hobby is one that people kind of... Except, I mean, you kind of generally have to have money. It has like a certain like socioeconomic, you know, association. But dog training as a hobby doesn't seem to me like something people think of as like...

Like you do dog training when you have a problem. Yeah. But you do horseback riding because you have money and you love animals. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And I think, and this is something I've kind of had to reconcile in recent years because I wanted to get back into horseback riding. But after spending so much time, you know, as like an R plus trainer, you know, positive reinforcement trainer, to think of... The horse training world and the way that you like literally break horses into being ridden, it just doesn't jive anymore. So I've been interested in finding, you know, like different places around the country that actually are working to change that and doing more like positive reinforcement things in the horse training world. Because I think there is this weird like...

I don't know. There's something about wanting to dominate such a big animal that I think people also find attractive. And so that's more interesting to them. And for some reason, just training a dog to sit politely or something like that, people really look down on, I find. Not everywhere, but I think certain people frown upon animal traits.

Right. No, I... Or don't think of it as like, I don't know. Like I think people would be surprised how many of our clients are like bankers and corporate lawyers and whatever who like that night pour themselves a glass of wine and teach their dogs to play dead. Yeah.

Whereas if they were like, I'm going to go horseback riding for the weekend and I'm training dressage or whatever, it would be like its own. Yeah. It would be its own thing. No, you go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, I think people sometimes are surprised to realize like how much science actually goes into what we do.

And it's not just like some silly recreational thing. I mean, like, yeah, teaching your dog to play dead is hilarious. But there is a lot of like actual, like there's a lot of like hardcore science that goes into what we do. So it's not just a frou-frou, you know, hobby. Yeah.

Yeah. Hardcore, but, like, also, like, I mean, I'm always thinking, like, how amazingly easy it is to understand. I mean, I was, like, I grew up thinking, like, I'm bad at science, which now seems hilarious to me because I feel like, how can you be bad at, like, I mean, even, like, the best scientists in the world are just figuring things out, right? Yeah, yeah. You can't be bad at discovery, right?

Like, you just discover. Right. But, you know, I think it's the way our education system is set up where you feel like, you know, you're good at certain subjects or not. I mean, also, like the subjects I now think are, what's the word? Like, sorry, I'm having a brain fart.

Not like fictional, but like arbitrary, you know, because like there's math and science and there's art and history and there's, you know, there's drama and music and all the things that I poured my life into and got a degree. And yes, totally superfluous, I would say. Just kidding. But I think it did make me a good dog trainer. What, music?

Yeah. How so? I think it actually helped with my timing a lot. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because there was so much counting and rhythm and, you know, having to watch like a conductor all the time.

I think it's helped my clicker timing immensely. Oh, very interesting. Yeah. I have myself done it and I've suggested to other aspiring trainers to work with a metronome sometimes because sometimes it's hard to keep track of counting, but you can just kind of like, you know, follow the beat. Yep.

Huh. So what was it like deciding like, okay, now I'm going to become a trainer? I mean, I know in the end you ended up doing our apprenticeship. I did. Did you look into other programs?

Did you, I don't know, I'm like, what's the backstory there? Yeah. That's a great question. And it actually was something I kind of struggled with for a few years because, you know, I have a degree in music. I came to New York City to be a Broadway musician.

Yeah, man. Really? Like, was that your goal to like work in like the pit? That was my goal. I wanted to be a pit musician because I had done like, you know, pits all through college and, you know, sort of like regional stuff.

But that was kind of the goal. Broadway was the goal. And it requires like a lot of, ugh. Like just networking and like cold calling people you don't know. And like these are just not skill sets that I have.

And I just kind of knew. Really? Is it a lot of like rubbing shoulders? Yeah, it's a lot of. You know, it's super competitive, right?

It's very competitive and it's super like who knows who, who's cool, who can hang. And of course, like definitely you have to be talented. Like that goes without saying. But there's just a lot of skills involved that I either didn't possess or was not really interested in honing. Yeah.

Like I enjoyed performing, but there was a lot about being a musician that I didn't enjoy. And I had been thinking really as soon as I kind of started working with Oliver within the first three months of having him, I sort of knew that dog training was something I wanted to explore and give more time to. But it took me, I mean, he is six now. It took me a good few years to give myself the permission to Sort of let the dream of being a musician go or at least pause it for a while and allow myself to pursue something different, which may sound crazy to some people, but it took me a little while. No, that's really interesting.

You know, I think you said to me something like that once before. And as an outsider, it seems to me like being a musician, you're not going to stop being a musician, like you can always play. But it was the first time I thought of that, of like, oh, you know, you must like, I'm not explaining it well. Yeah. I gave up one career for another career, but I didn't really feel like I have to let this one thing go in order to make this other thing happen.

I mean, I guess I could have felt that way. I just – I never had that feeling. Yeah. So it's an interesting thing to think of that feeling for me because especially like – I mean, yeah, like it's the opportunity cost of life. You're giving your time and energy to one thing.

Yeah. It's hard to like, not everybody can like figure out how to, you know, play French horn while training dogs and make a living doing that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think because I had, I mean, I've been playing music since I was five years old and I've been playing the French horn since I was 10.

And when I was 14, I decided it was what I wanted to dedicate my entire life to. So I spent a good portion of my life Firmly dedicated to this idea and this identity of myself as a musician. And I was just scared, I guess, to shift that identity a little bit and either include something else, like dog training, or not focus on music as much anymore. I was like, did I waste all that time? No, it was awesome.

And I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I definitely... And doing the apprenticeship program at School For The Dogs was, other than adopting Oliver, probably the second best thing I could have done. Oh, yay. Good to hear.

Yeah. I mean, it definitely set me on the right path. And I had been thinking about doing some type of certification type program. I kind of had my heart set on KPA, the Karen Pryor Academy, which I know you're a proud graduate of. I am.

But I think just financially, I sort of, I was scared away from it for a bunch of years. And I was like, okay, well, I kept setting myself these dates. I'd be like, okay, well, I'll enroll by this date. Okay, how about next year? I'm not ready.

I'm next year. And then I was kind of, I was kind of pushed into like really making a choice because I was in the process of losing one job and I needed to find another. And I was like... No time like the present. Let's do the apprenticeship program.

And it turned out to be a great decision. So it was kind of everything converged all at once. Was there like one specific like light bulb moment during the apprenticeship for you? Light bulb moment, like in terms of... I don't know, just thinking about how to communicate this stuff to other people.

Gotcha. Huh, that's a really great question. Or maybe not. I don't know if there was a light bulb moment, but there were a lot of topics we covered that I found super interesting. I think particularly, particularly the idea of giving an animal choice.

Because even though, you know, positive reinforcement training is all about, you know, kind of tricking the animal into thinking that we're tricking them. No, tricking the animal into thinking that they're tricking us into giving them great stuff, which I love. I love that game. There is still, you know, there are still some things that, you know, we need our dogs to be able to do, like grooming and handling and things like that, that even so I feel like sometimes we force on them in a way that they don't necessarily like. And so just like...

Things like the bucket game and teaching a dog to opt in to certain behaviors. Yes, I choose to have my nails clipped by you. I'm not submitting to the process. I choose to allow you to do that. I thought that was a really powerful moment for me when I started learning about those types of techniques.

How did it change your life with Oliver? The apprenticeship program in general or that specific? The apprenticeship program in general. The apprenticeship program in general, definitely. You want to weigh on this, buddy?

Is that what you're doing? I have things to say. I will be heard. Yeah, I mean, it definitely changed. I mean, I think we had a pretty good relationship in general, which I think was evident in the videos that I would submit because he was always just so happy to be a part of whatever I was doing and he loves training so much.

But I think it helped me be a lot clearer in what I was doing. It helped me quiet my body when I worked with him so that I wasn't giving him unnecessary prompts or... Giving him more information than was necessary for him to sort of sift through in order to figure out what I wanted. It made me a lot more patient with him because I realized that if he's not getting it, it's probably because I'm not communicating it effectively to him. And I think it made me just a better...

Friend and like a partner, you know, because when I, when I, just in general, just in general, like with humans and also Oliver, because it, I spend so much time trying to figure out what motivates both my dog clients and my human clients and how to get them to do something in a way that is supportive. But also like motivational. And I kind of, I now use those techniques like on the humans in my life. You're a manager now too. Yeah.

So, hey guys, I do it on you too.

Any tips for people trying to use positive reinforcement in their lives with humans? Yeah, be kind. Be kind. Be kind, be patient, you know, and it's... You're always going to get someone who's just difficult for the sake of being difficult.

Not that we do not have anyone like that at School For The Dogs. We really don't. We really don't. I'm not just saying that. But I think really taking the time to not get emotional about things if things aren't happening the way you want them to and just really...

Thinking, okay, well, how can I motivate this person to be more successful in a way that's going to make them happy and also myself happy? That's really, yeah. Yeah, well put. I mean, I feel like I'm constantly trying to figure out how to manage people better using what I know about dog training. But then a lot of the time I just like fall down on the floor and I'm like, it's too hard.

I'm just not good at this. Well. I think almost a decade of School For The Dogs would disagree with you there. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's just like, I mean, also like for me, you know, like one thing that I've...

I've learned through this journey of building this business is like you can't be good at everything, you know, like you have to. And again, going back to like opportunity costs of life, like you have to like at some point, especially as you get older and like. You know, you start to feel like, oh, wait, I don't have like forever ahead of me. You have to think about like where you can be most valuable and give the most of yourself to the world in the best way. But yeah, there's so many similarities.

And yeah, I mean, that's I think what's so fun about dog training or I mean, animal training in general is it's like a much more simplified version of the stuff we deal with with each other. Yeah. Because, like, you know, like, basically 100% of what's happened in Oliver's life. It's not like he had, it's not like he came to you with, like, major years of baggage or that he, like, goes off eight hours a day and, like, has experiences that you don't know about. Like, you control, and you control, like, all the stuff that, stuff that he likes.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's, you know, it's challenging when, you know, I meet a new dog and I know, like, I don't have that history with them. And I, you know, so I try to keep things as simple as possible. But I also try to take all of that same simplicity and use it in my interactions with humans.

Or if I'm managing a group of people, for instance, I take that simplicity of working with dogs. How do I set their environment up in such a way that's going to set this person up for success? Or am I saying too much? Do I need to say less? Do I need to say more?

Things like that. So I think it definitely. Because you have to really think about when you're working with a dog, you have to think about every aspect, everything that's in the room around you when you're working with them and everything that you're doing, every little twitch in your body, where are your treats? What's your right hand doing? So I try to think about that when I communicate with humans now as well, because I think it does make a difference.

Yeah. Well, there's so much in common between... I mean, in common is the wrong word. I think if you're interested in... Dogs and dog training, it's not a big leap to become interested in like human body language because, you know, dogs are talking to us.

They're just not talking to us in the way we talk to each other. But humans talk to each other without words as well. Yeah. There's this great book called The Like Switch that I would recommend to you as someone who has similar interests. It's written by this FBI agent whose job was to...

I guess convert people into being informants for him. And so he talks about like that are just different things you can see in people that tell you like what's going on, going on in their minds. Right around when I was reading it, I remember I went out on a date with a guy who was biting his lip. In that book, they talk about how that means there's something that you're trying to not say, which seems like, I was like, really? That seems so obvious.

It does. But I was out with this guy. Magnolia's saying hi. Hi, baby. I'm on the phone.

I'm on the phone, yeah. Anyway, this guy, after biting his lip nonstop for 20 minutes, told me that he was a recovering heroin addict. Oh, goodness. I was like, oh, I guess that's what you were trying to not say. Should I say it?

Is this the time? I'm sure that's probably hard for him to figure out when the best time is to say that, but he wants to say it. Yeah, exactly. He doesn't want to be dishonest. Yeah.

The other thing he talked about in this book, and I think probably this is in psychology classes as well, too. Magnolia, are you part of this interview now? Yeah? Yeah. The other thing he talks about is the three ingredients that you have to have in order to feel closeness to someone.

You have to have two of three ingredients. They are proximity, duration, duration. And intensity. So like either you've known someone for a long time and you've like been physically close to them, like, you know, someone you sat next to at a desk for 10 years or, you know, someone you grew up with or you need to have like a very intense experience with someone and you're physically close to them. Like there needs to be two of those three ingredients.

And I think about that all the time. I've been feeling that lately with work because I feel like so – I feel just like extra – like since COVID happened, I don't know if you feel this way too, but like I just feel like closer to like all the staff. Yeah. Even though we're all like – we all have not been in the same place. Like I just feel like going through this intense thing together has made me feel just more – I mean, you know, I've been like in staff meetings where I like – I'm like, I'm going to cry.

Well, we very much have been, you know, in the trenches together, I think, because this really, I mean, it didn't just throw us as individuals for a loop, but like, obviously, this has had huge effects on the business itself. And, you know, I think everyone who's kind of stuck around, you know, because they were able to. You know, I was really just dedicated to kind of making sure that we all as a group really saw this through. So I agree. I'm just like very weepy over the team that we have like all the time.

And now, you know, being in these like, you know, managerial shoes, I'm like, everyone's great. You just do such good work. Oh, good. I'm so glad to hear you say that too. So I don't, I don't feel quite as like...

Crazy and emotional. No, I told you I do all my emoting in private, but it does happen. It's a thing. It's a thing. I think also, you know, Kate and I like, you know, feel like, oh, like this is like our baby and like other people are caring for the baby.

Like it's gotten to the point like where it's not just like the two of like the two of us can't care for it alone anymore. And like how exciting and wonderful that we have this, that we have all these other people who are like, you know, in it to help. Help The Dogs. So any major success stories with clients that you've worked with that you could share? Any major success stories?

Or just funny stories. I have a lot of funny stories, but I do, I have one major success story because they are, I mean, we're still in a transitional period right now, but I'm just so proud of these clients. They're very fresh on my mind because we just had a session together, I think last week, and we've done, I think, Maybe like seven, upwards of like seven or nine sessions since quarantine hit. Our little Corgi, Nugs, is so wonderful. He's so, so wonderful.

Yeah, so Nugs the Corgi is a puppy that I've been seeing pretty regularly since the start of quarantine. So I don't know, maybe April or April. Maybe that's when we saw each other virtually for the first time. And, you know, it was just very basic manners things at first, you know, a lot of foundation behaviors, sit down. I think he learned rollover, which was really fun.

But he went through some transitions in his life. He moved homes. He spent time, you know, out of state. Came back to New York and developed a level of leash reactivity that was pretty difficult for his guardians to understand and manage. I think this is happening more and more where people got...

Or not more and more. I should say it is happening. I've now heard of more than a handful of people who got puppies during quarantine when they were living in some rural part of the country and now their puppies are adolescent age and in New York City. And that's really freaking hard, right? It's really freaking hard.

And I think for nugs, it was a combination of a lot of different things. And You know, he did have an incident. I don't remember if it was on leash or if it was at a dog park, but he had a bad experience with a dog. And I think that has definitely contributed to a lot of his reactivity. And at first we weren't sure if the reactivity was motivated by like a play frustration.

I want to get to that dog and I want to play with them, but I can't and I'm mad. Or if it was, I'm afraid of you because I got hurt once. Please stay away from me. But we did... A yard evaluation for them, and he has been coming to yard, and he has been making a lot of progress with his off-leash interactions with other dogs.

He's still a little insecure, and then once he gets comfortable, he doesn't quite know how to politely engage with the other dogs. He's just like a typical, like... Dude, teenage dog, who's like a little bit self-aware and scared of things. But he was reactive to like the jingling of dog collars. He couldn't be outside for any longer than like five minutes because he was just barking his head off at everything.

And he's just, he's done such good work and his guardians have... Been really diligent about managing his life in such a way that his stress levels are now so low on a regular basis that he's reacting to things far less and we're actually able to start doing some real work getting him happy about seeing these things that previously made him feel uncomfortable. So I'm just so happy with Nugs and his people. They're awesome and really dedicated to helping that little guy. So I'm very pleased to have been a part of their journey.

That's awesome. How has it been transitioning to teaching both private lessons and classes online? You know, I... I was going to do it either way because that's what I signed up for, but I was definitely an internal naysayer at first. And I've been very open with clients as well about this when they're kind of like waffling in between.

Do I take an online class or don't I? Take the online class. If it's the only option you have, take the online class. I... Went into it thinking it was going to be too hard, too impractical, not enough room to demo.

It's been great. I mean, all of my online classes have been, I feel, pretty successful. Oliver agrees because he was my demo dog. And it's, I feel like... In a way, I was almost closer with those students because I made such an effort to make us all feel like we were connected and like we were actually in the same room.

So I thought it was great. And I love that we've been doing the virtual training. I really hope that it continues in the future because we've gotten to work with people all over the world and help dogs that we never would have met. Because they didn't have access to us. Yeah, it really is like one of the weird blessings of COVID.

Thanks, COVID. Thanks, mass death and destruction. Yeah, right? I mean, it's like there's just so many horrible things that have happened and so many people are suffering, but it's like I will take that one win, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Well, I'm curious what your family's reaction was to you saying, hey, I'm going to now become a trainer.

So I didn't tell them for like a while. I didn't tell them for a couple months because I was in this weird transitional period where I was in between jobs. I didn't quite know what I was doing. I had just signed a new lease. Like everything was very up in the air.

And I felt like if all these things were uncertain and then I threw into it, Hey, I'm going to do this apprenticeship, but I don't know how I'm going to pay for it, and I don't know if I'm going to get a job at the end of it. Cool, right? No, you can't tell your parents that when you're 32 and you're supposed to be stable. Nobody wants to hear that. So I definitely waited for a couple months into it and just slowly started kind of dropping hints and stuff.

And when I eventually told them, I wouldn't say that there was a huge interest level, but In it, it was just like, oh, you're doing that? Sounds fun, I guess. Change of subject. But now that it's transformed into a job and I've been doing it for a while and they see how happy it makes me, I think that they're a lot more enthusiastic about it. My parents just want me to be happy.

So if I can do that and also pay my bills, they're absolutely pleased as punch. Where do you see your dog training career going? Where do you see yourselves in the next five years? I know. It's such a hard thing to imagine.

I think I just – it sounds so cheesy, but I really just want to keep getting better at what I do. And I want my skill levels to increase so that when I get a client that maybe a year ago I felt a little wishy-washy on, I now feel confident that I can help that person. So yeah, I really, I just want to get better at what I do. And I want to start working with other species a little bit more. I did, I was supposed to go to Santa Fe in July to go to the Villanova Training Center, which is a positive reinforcement training center for horses.

And I was going to do like a weekend intensive there. Cancel due to COVID, bummer. But stuff like that, I'm hoping to do a little bit more of. How about some pig training? I'd love to train pigs.

There's a pig in my neighborhood and I think they'd be keen, they'd be happy to bring their pig over. I want to train pigs. I want to train everything. I tried to do some training with my leopard gecko before she passed. Oh, right.

Yeah. Couldn't figure out what motivated the gecko other than me leaving her alone. Oh, you loved Herbie Jane, right? I did. Herbie Jane.

You loved her so much. I did. She was the light of my life. I get it, sir. You're jealous.

I know. I know. Well-timed. Very well-timed. Well, Erin, it's so nice to talk to you and have the chance to catch up with you.

It's my great pleasure being your boss. Oh, thank you. And I couldn't be happier to have you. And Oliver, yes. And Oliver.

Hi, Oliver.

To have you on the team. You know, and it also occurs to me when we talk about the French horn, you know, as a performer, like there's so much like teaching. Yeah. Teaching is a form of performance. I mean, it is.

Is that what you think? I have always lived for the applause and I continue to live for the applause. So I think I personally find my sessions and my classes to be very theatrical when it's appropriate and very like sort of dramatic. But, you know, when it comes down to the training, like it's very quiet. And I think it's an interesting contrast for anyone who watches me train because it's like...

You can be that quiet. You haven't spoken in like 30 seconds. What's happening? But it is definitely a bit of a performance, which is- A bit of a performance. Well, in that like, you know, generally where things need to go.

But, you know, at the end of the day, it's just like you in front of a bunch of people. Yeah. I taught for a long time in a lot of different scenarios, but I was always adamant that I never wanted to be like a public school music teacher. That was not ever- Something that I saw myself doing because I just don't, I mean, same place every day, same people, same time. Like I can't do it.

It's too much. But I did, I do remember when I had told my parents finally that, you know, I was doing this apprenticeship at School For The Dogs. My dad, who says very little, took a couple minutes and he said, so I guess you did want to be a teacher after all. You just didn't want to teach kids. And I was like, well, kind of.

Most of what I do is teaching humans, teaching humans how to teach dogs. It's true. But it's a different kind of teacher. Well, you know, I really hated school. I was not – I mean, I worked hard as a student, but I didn't love it.

And I remember thinking very clearly, like, I don't understand why anybody would want to be a teacher and have to commit to going to school for their entire lives. And so now I think, like, I remind myself all the time how, you know, how kind of hilarious it is now that I, like, have my own school. Right? It's so ironic. But it's like a school the way I think, like, school should be, where, like, the students are, like, super psyched to get there.

And I don't know, maybe they just need to use food. Yeah. I mean, maybe. I think it's just that thing that we were talking about earlier where, you know, I don't know that, and I understand how hard-pressed teachers are to have any leeway, you know, given the curriculum that they have, but I don't know how much time goes into figuring out what motivates each individual student. I think it's just like...

Let's all hang on together on this life raft, take the test and then graduate. Yeah. Oh my God. Like, let's just get through. Like, if they had the luxury of sitting down and like coming up with individual training plans for each human student and figuring out what their reinforcers were, I think it would be a different place for sure.

It's negative reinforcement. It's do this or else. Yeah, it's interesting and sad because I think it could be so much more fun. But anyway, thanks for taking the time to talk. And we'll do this again soon.

Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next Wednesday. If you haven't entered our November giveaway yet, it's a mug that says hot dog trainer on it. You can enter at schoolforthedogs.com slash pod. And as always, you can support this podcast by shopping in our online store at storeforthedogs.com.

Like I said, you can get the Mendota leash there, the same leash that Dog Daddy has, but it has the added benefit that it does not say, tie me up daddy on it.