On Racism, Reinforcement, Leashes & Poop Bags

Last week in New York City a white woman called the cops on a black man, saying he was threatening her life. Really, he just wanted her to obey Central Park's leash laws. In this episode, Annie attempts to dissect the altercation from a dog trainer's point of view, talking about everything from how we should use leashes, to how the man used an interesting combination of treats and negative reinforcement to get the woman to leash the dog. Through the lens of dog behavior and training, we can also spot how fear, caused by ignorance or wrong associations or both, can lead to awful actions. Annie also talks about the animal-training concepts of "trigger stacking," her own "learned helplessness" when it comes to affecting change by voting, and her ongoing efforts to take a stance, one poop bag at a time.

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Notes: The Amy Cooper/Christian Cooper video

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Found My Animal leashes Coercion And Its Fallout by Murray Sidman behavior.org Donald Trump Poop Bags --- Partial Transcript: Annie: Hey everyone. I recorded this episode over a week ago, before riots broke out all around the country. The episode is about the incident that happened just before George Floyd was killed in another part of the country in New York City. It felt to me, you know, I'm in New York, it felt like a local incident took place more or less than in School for the Dog's backyard. And I didn't expect it to go viral, but it did because it's about race and racism and white privilege. And then George Floyd's killing suddenly made this New York City incident seem all the more sinister and terrible. This isn't a podcast about race. But the reason I felt like I wanted to say something about the New York incident is because in the middle of these two people, one of whom was black, one of whom was white, there was literally a dog and no one else is talking that much about the dog, which makes sense. There's a lot to unpack here that has nothing to do with the dog, but this is a podcast about dogs and about dog training. And so I felt I wanted to talk about the dog and to do so without so much touching on the much larger issues going on because I'm not a political commentator or an activist. I am a white woman who owns a small business. I think Black Lives Matter and I'm depressed and frightened to be living in a world where we even need to point out that black lives matter. All weekend, I lay in bed, holding my daughter and listening to helicopters and sirens overhead. And I just felt helpless. And if you've listened to this podcast before you obviously know that I like to try and spot the dog training lessons in the world we live in because so much of our lives is about changing our own behavior or trying to change other people's behavior.

Transcript

Annie

Hey everyone. I recorded this episode over a week ago, before riots broke out all around the country. The episode is about the incident that happened just before George Floyd was killed in another part of the country in New York City. It felt to me, you know, I'm in New York, it felt like a local incident took place more or less than in School for the Dogs backyard. And I didn't expect it to go viral, but it did because it's about race and racism and white privilege. And then George Floyd's killing suddenly made this New York City incident seem all the more sinister and terrible.

This isn't a podcast about race. But the reason I felt like I wanted to say something about the New York incident is because in the middle of these two people, one of whom was black, one of whom was white, there was literally a dog and no one else is talking that much about the dog, which makes sense.

There's a lot to unpack here that has nothing to do with the dog, but this is a podcast about dogs and about dog training. And so I felt I wanted to talk about the dog and to do so without so much touching on the much larger issues going on because I'm not a political commentator or an activist. I am a white woman who owns a small business. I think Black Lives Matter and I'm depressed and frightened to be living in a world where we even need to point out that black lives matter. All weekend, I lay in bed, holding my daughter and listening to helicopters and sirens overhead. And I just felt helpless. And if you've listened to this podcast before you obviously know that I like to try and spot the dog training lessons in the world we live in because so much of our lives is about changing our own behavior or trying to change other people's behavior. But I have no idea what the dog training answer is here, or even how to break down the problems in terms of behavior, because it's too huge and it's too terrible. I do think that there is a lot that could be said about conditioning and how it causes racism and hatred. Stereotyping is not something that is specific to our species, but police brutality is, but I just don't feel like it's my place to talk about this stuff right now, which has left me, asking myself, what can I do?

And the answer I've come up with is that I can run a small business that upholds the values that I believe in. I can try to help dogs. I can try to help people. I can try to help my staff do the same. And maybe somehow we can use what we're doing to set the tone for others in even some small way. And maybe I can help people see things through this kind of weird behavioral science, dog training lens of mine that could be helpful or at least amusing.

Like I said, I think there's a lot to be said about learning when it comes to racism. I saw this a Nelson Mandela quote on this that I wanted to share. “No one person is born hating another because of the color of his skin, his background, or his religion, people learn to hate. And if they learn to hate, they can be taught to love for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.” And now here is some peppy intro music.

**music**

Annie

So Bailey, tell me what happened.

Bailey

About a month ago, Harry and I were walking in a park close to our apartment and we went into the park. There was a few other dogs there, but they were all on leash and Harry is generally reactive. So we just keep our space from them and everything's fine. But after about 5 or 10 minutes being in the park, this couple came with their dog. It was a 10 month old German Shepherd, so a puppy, but still full grown nonetheless. And they were on the other side of the park and I just saw them out of the corner of my eye, let their dog off the leash. And the park is not an off leash park. So I looked to my right and the dog is kind of just barreling through the park at Harry and I, and I think that the dog is actually probably quite friendly and didn't come over just to get in a fight, but came tearing up to Harry.

And again, here he's reactive. He's on a leash. He was muzzled, um, and the dog came right over with, I guess so much intensity that, they almost immediately started to fight. And yeah, since again, since Harry had a muzzle on there wasn't a lot that, that he could do or that I would want him to do, but the other dogs owners were so far away that the only choice that I felt like I had in the moment was to step in between Harry and German Shepherd. And I ended up getting bit and the parents came over and I told them that I was bit. They apologized told me he's never bitten another or a person before. And that they were sorry. And again, I don't think that the dog was a bad dog or necessarily an aggressive dog. I just think that, uh, given the situation with Harry on a leash, Harry reactive. We try at all costs to avoid encounters with other dogs and this dog being off leash and coming over to us, kind of made that impossible.

Annie

Bailey ended up pretty badly bit by this dog. And I asked her to tell this story because I have a hunch that cases of off-leash dogs attacking other dogs or people are on the rise right now because dog parks are largely closed because of quarantine and people are there for increasingly letting their dogs off leash in places where they shouldn't be.

Now, I don't have any data behind this. This is simply me guessing about people changing their behavior as far as leashing up their dogs during this containment period that we're in. But this week there was some social proof to my hypothesis when a story hit the news about an off leash dog situation that didn't actually wind up in any one being physically hurt, but this dog being off leash caused all kinds of other ancillary damage.

Audio plays from video

Woman

Sir, I’m asking you to stop.

Man

Please don't come close to me.

Woman

Sir. I've asked you to stop, please, stop recording me.

Man

Don't come close to me, please.

Woman

I’m calling the cops.

Man

Please call the cops. Please call the cops.

Woman

I'm going to tell them there's an African American man threatening my life.

Man

Please tell them whatever you like.

Annie

So earlier this week, this woman who we now know is named Amy Cooper was in Central Park in, I guess, kind of a remote part of the park with her Cocker Spaniel Henry and a man who was birding, asked her to put the dog on leash.

Now, if you're not in New York City, you might not know that central park actually does have very liberal off-leash hours. Every morning before 9:00 AM. Dogs can be off-leash, which is pretty awesome in most part of the parks. But I actually think the part that she was in which is called The Ramble dogs are never allowed to be off-leash. Anyway, basically she had her dog off leash. This guy asked her to put the dog on leash and the video starts when she refuses to put her dog on leash. Instead she is grabbing the dog's collar and a kind of uncontrolled way.

And ultimately she threatened that if he doesn't stop videoing her, she is going to call the cops and tell them that there is an African American man threatening her life as she says, in the little video clip I played. And the video clip, which is about a minute ends with it looks like her finally putting the dog on the leash after dragging him this way and in what looks like a very uncomfortable manner for the dog for the better part of a minute.

Now, the story certainly contains some behavior lessons, in my opinion, but it's also interesting in that it is kind of a story of how good dog training might have kept this conflagration from happening at all. The reason that we put dogs on leashes, it shouldn't be only because that's what the law is. We put dogs on leashes to protect them and to protect other people. Not everybody wants your dog to greet them. Just like you wouldn't want some random person running up to your dog without you saying it's okay. It's understandable that plenty of people wouldn't want your dog running up to them. Both dogs and people, you know, we can all have our preferences about how we want to be approached, when we want to be approached, uh, and who we want to approach us. So it's both about safety, safety from, you know, making sure that your dog doesn't hurt anyone, but it's also about understanding people's preferences about their space. And it's about keeping dogs safe, keeping control of them so that they don't go after a chipmunk and end up hit by a car.

So I'm all for leashes, obviously, just like I'm for bike helmets and seatbelts. That said, like a seatbelt, I think that ideally you shouldn't have to use a leash. Now I am in no way saying you shouldn't use a leash. I'm saying that ideally it should just be there in case of an emergency. With most dogs, most of the time, with some good dog training, you can teach the dog where you want him to walk. You can teach your dog when and how to pay attention to you when you're outside. You can teach a dog to come to you from a great distance, even with distractions. Ideally we shouldn't be relying on the leash to control how the dog is walking or if the dog is coming to us. In the same way that I don't drive like a crazy person just because I'm wearing my seatbelt.

I think the best kind of leash is a loose leash that ideally is so lightweight, I like leashes that are light, I like leashes without a lot of heavy hardware. And the reason is I want a loose lightweight leash that I can almost forget is there. And that my dog isn't sensing all the time too. I did not think I was going to do any kind of product endorsement in this episode. The Mendota leashes, which are very lightweight, sturdy but lightweight, and also Found My Animal’s double ended leashes. I like to use their thin nylon one, it's really long. And what's nice is you can put it around your waist, which makes it even easier for it to be there just for an emergency.I'm not yanking my dog around by it.

Now, I actually have a personal anecdote relating to having an off leash dog in New York City, but an off leash dog that I feel very confident is going to walk where I want him to walk, my dog Amos. We live in the middle of New York City. And a few years ago there was a huge electrical fire in our building and I literally had to run out of the building with my cat and my dog under each arm. And that was about it. And my upstairs neighbor, fortunately, everybody was fine in the end, the only thing that was lost was stuff. But my upstairs neighbor had to be rescued by the fireman and she had to be brought to the hospital and in the ambulance, she gave me Daisy her dog and asked me to take care of Daisy until she got out.

I ended up staying for the night at a neighbor's house, across the street with my dog and my cat and Daisy. And, you know, I was basically up all night, crying and stressing out ‘cause I had just lost my apartment in a fire and nearly died. But I got myself together in the morning and, uh, took the dogs out for a walk, but I only had one leash. I only had my dog's leash because Nina had just shoved Daisy into my arms. So I put Amos's leash on Daisy and figured I would just let Amos be off-leash we were just going around the block with hindsight. I could have walked one of them and then walked the other one, but I wasn't thinking as clearly as maybe I should have and figured that we could most likely make it around the block with no incident, because, thanks to our great relationship and lots of good training, Amos will walkright near me on the street when I need him to. And he was a peach, everything was fine.

We were almost back at the apartment when someone stopped me on the street and started yelling at me for not having one of my dogs on leash. And all I could say was, you know, you're right, I'm sorry, I'm going back in with both of them. But I thought, you know, should I say, like, let me tell you the story of why the dog's not on a leash.

Anyway, back to Amy Cooper in the park with her dog Henry. Now what's also interesting, as least, as interesting to me as a dog trainer is that this is also a story… well, I mentioned that this was an overall, a story about dog training in the news, but it's also a story about dog treats and you don't see a lot of stories about dog treats in the news.

The man in this story, whose name is Christian Cooper, both people's last names are Cooper, a little confusing. The man later said he had asked the woman to put her dog on leash. And when she refused, he said, “okay, well then I'm going to do what I'm going to do. And you're probably not going to like it” or something to that effect. And then he reached into his pocket and took out a bunch of dog treats. He has since said that this has long been a tactic of his when dealing with off-leash dogs while he's birding is to give the dogs treats because it makes the dogs come to him. And then that makes their owners want to put their dogs on leash. It's kind of genius.

It's true that it would probably encourage people to get control of their dogs, if someone starts to feed their dog, some random thing, which could be poison or could contain gluten or be a protein that doesn't agree with your dog. I'm kind of kidding, but I'm kind of not because I know a lot of dogs who have some serious dietary restrictions and, you know, I really applaud Christian Cooper for getting the behavior he wants, which is to get people to put their dogs on leash. And it involves nothing more than dog treats.

And this brings me to the part of this story that interests me as far as operant conditioning goes. There is a lesson in negative reinforcement. He's basically saying to dog owners, the bad thing these treats that I have will go away if you engage in the behavior, I want you to engage in. So it's negative, in negative reinforcement, because the behavior is going to result in something going away-negative and it's reinforcement because the desired behavior is being encouraged since putting the leash on will make this guy take away his treats, using dog treats to manipulate humans so that he can get what he wants.

He's also punishing the behavior of letting dogs off leash to begin with. Positive punishment- he's adding dog treats to the equation in order to discourage the behavior of letting your dog off leash. It's an unusual anecdote that uses dog treats in negative reinforcement and in positive punishment. We usually see it in the positive reinforcement quadrant and the negative punishment quadrant and you know, this whole ordeal. And certainly the public humiliation that Amy Cooper has experienced I'm sure has, or I imagine has punished this behavior in a much larger way. I'm guessing there are more people, at least in Central Park, at least in The Ramble who are certainly going to be less likely now to ever let their dog off leash, thanks to this terrible incident.

Again, ideally people should just be putting their dogs on leash cause it's the right thing to do for other people and for their dogs. And if not that, there are laws in place to try and discourage the behavior by finding people if they're caught. But if all else fails, Christian Cooper is going to get control of your dogs by giving them treats.

And I don't think he has a fear of dogs. I don't think that's been mentioned in any news story, but if you are fearful of dogs or if you simply just don't want any dogs jumping on you or getting into your space, it's actually a really smart thing to do to throw treats away from you. And this is sometimes something we suggest people do upon entering their homes or having new people enter their homes, help your dog learn, “oh, when people enter good stuff happens on the ground over there.” Ideally, you know, not right at the door, but as far as you can throw it from the door. A dog who is six feet away from you, scouring for treats on the ground is a dog who is not also jumping on you.

And with Amy Cooper, he ultimately uses negative reinforcement to get her to put the leash on with his phone. Since she says she wants him to stop filming her and then the moment that she finally puts this poor dog on a leash, the phone shuts off. So his timing is commendable. The second that he gets what he wants, he removes the bad thing, negative reinforcement.

There's always, though, that diagonal between positive punishment and negative reinforcement and in the other direction too, between positive reinforcement and negative punishment where he is encouraging the behavior of her leashing up the dog. On the other side, there's positive punishment where he is adding something to the equation, the filming of her in order to discourage the behavior of having an off leash dog. And punishment by definition is causing a behavior to be discouraged, to be less likely to happen.

Again, I think there also might be an off camera lesson here in people wearing masks and the way in which that can affect the way that we deal with each other. I, of course, could be totally wrong. This exact situation might've happened if we weren't in this COVID-19 era where people are wearing masks outside, but I know, and I think I think I've talked about this on the podcast before, I know that I feel more stressed out dealing with people outside than I normally do. Not just because I'm worried about us getting each other sick, of course, there's that. But I also just feel like I can't read people's faces. I think that we communicate with each other in very subtle ways with our faces all the time, without really thinking about it, subtle smiles, subtle nods. I mean, I would say that reading human body language is a sub interest of my interest in animal behavior. And I'm more tuned into it than ever because I can't see parts of people's faces.

And I think I'm particularly tuned into this because I have a 17 month old and she's adorable, but she's also a little baby and sometimes she cries or whatever. But I feel paranoid outside some of the time because I feel like people are looking at us a lot and they're probably looking at us when she's in her stroller or whatever, just because she's very cute, but because I can't see if people are smiling at her, sometimes I just assume people are annoyed. For instance, you know, she's not wearing a mask, which I don't know how people with kids this young can put their kids in masks...as good of a dog trainer as I am. I don't think I could train her to keep a mask on her face I can't even get her to put a barrette in her hair half the time. So I wonder if people are looking at me, actually judging me for not having her in a mask. I don't know. Maybe it's just my personality type or something, but I find that I default to figuring that I'm doing something wrong and everybody hates me. And I think that ups my stress level in general when I'm out these days. So I don't know if this altercation started when they were both wearing masks, but I wonder, and I wonder if it reached a fever pitch quickly, perhaps partially because of that.

And trigger stacking is something that dog trainers talk about that certainly applies to us that something I never thought about in such clear terms until I heard the term trigger stacking, as it applies to dogs. It is what it sounds likeyou experienced one stressful thing, you experience another stressful thing, you experience another stressful thing, and then you find yourself just absolutely losing it because the milk has gone bad or your phone has gone dead. We've all been there.

Now I am not excusing Amy Cooper's behavior. I'm just saying, I doubt she was having the very best, happiest, most relaxing day of her life in the hours prior to this incident. And, you know, I really don't fault him for behaving in the way he did at all. Although I think he could have perhaps been clearer about “I am going to give your dog dog treats” rather than saying, “I'm going to do what I'm going to do and you're not going to like it.” Although maybe in the situation, if you saw his side visually, it would have been clear what he was doing, I'm not sure. Anyway, but my point is he probably wasn't walking on sunshine in a cloud, rainbows and flowers and daisies either, you know, that's one interesting thing about this terrible moment we're living in is that we're all some degree of stressed out. I mean, most people are stressed out under normal circumstances, at least, in New York City, if not everywhere. But right now the thing that stressing us all out is more apparent than ever.

I don't think that you can look at anything in the news right now without thinking about all the stress everyone is under because of quarantine and this scary virus. And if this situation in Central Park has turned into national news, maybe it's because of a kind of larger kind of trigger stacking that's happening on a societal level.

And if it's bringing attention to unchecked racism, then you know, maybe that's a good thing. I don't know if this altercation would be getting such a play all over the world were we not collectively all under so much stress.

And you know, I think while it's about an act of racism, it's less precise to say that Amy Cooper did what she did from racism than it is to say she did it from fear. You can be racist, but not apparently fearful on the outside. The fear was probably caused by racism and the racism, I'm guessing, was caused by both ignorance and learned associations.

We see dogs act unreasonably all the time when they're fearful. When they're exposed to things that they're ignorant about or things they've learned to make associations with, even if those associations are wrong and baseless. Sure. As a shorthand, we can just say she is a racist, but I think it's more complicated than that. She's a product of a lifetime of learning and a product of her environment. And that's why the problem is so much bigger than her.

And I also wanted to point out that while I do feel bad for the way she is treating her dog in this one minute video, there are a lot of people out there who are treating their dogs far worse than she's treating her dog and they're doing it in non-stressed moments and often in the name of love and training. So I just want to be clear about where I stand on that because I've seen people accusing white people of being more concerned about the dog than about the racism here. The only reason I'm talking about the dog is this is a podcast about dogs. Sadly. I think her treatment of the dog is within the range of normal for the way people treat dogs. And that is certainly unfortunate. And part of my mission as a dog trainer, my mission with this podcast, my mission with the whole business is to help people evaluate how they treat dogs, but in the scheme of things, I think her yanking her dog around thoughtlessly is way less shocking and sad than her other actions here.

You know, the way that Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper are relating to each other, they're both trying to coerce each other. And this isn't unusual. We try to coerce each other all the time. We are coerced by the government all the time. I'm thinking about this a lot right now because I've been reading the incredible book by Murray Sidman called Coercion And Its Fallout. And I just wanted to end this episode with a couple of paragraphs from this book, I'm smushing together a bit from the preface and then a bit from the first chapter.

If we are going to change our interactions with each other, we are going to have to change what we do. By changing our conduct, we change ourselves. I have attempted in this book to indicate a critical kind of change that will have to take place in our social interactions, if we are ever to do something constructive about the miseries, we currently inflict on each other, if we are ever at least to postpone the current headlong rush towards extinction of the species. Coercion is not the root of all evil, but until we adopt other than coercive ways to control each other's conduct no method of physically improving our species will keep our survival timer from running out a developing science of behavior may again give people of good will cause for optimism about our chances for survival.

Most of us do of course use non-coercive techniques, but usually unskillfully; we almost always have coercion waiting in the wings. The application of non-coercive forms of control has been insignificant in comparison to humanity's habitual recourse to coercion.

Yet evidence from the analysis of behavior tells us that even when coercion accomplishes its immediate aim, it is in the long run self-defeating. Yes, we can get people to do what we want by threatening dire consequences if they do anything else, or to stop doing what we don't want by punishing those actions, but when we do, we sow the seeds of personal disengagement, isolation from society, neurosis, intellectual rigidity, hostility, and rebellion

**music**

Annie

I recorded part of this episode early last week and then a part of it early this week. And now you're hearing me later in the week. Today is Friday, post what happened with the protestors in Lafayette Square with Trump. And again, you know, politics is not really my thing, but I'm just so disgusted by our president. I have to say. And I think that's so much of the terrible things that are happening in this country right now are trickling down from the fact that we have a racist, narcissist, rapist sociopath in the White House. And part of what's so upsetting to me about that is that he was put there by my fellow Americans and I feel pretty helpless about it. You know, half the presidential candidates who I have voted for in my adult life actually won the popular vote, but didn't end up in office. And learned helplessness is a phrase that you hear when talking to animal trainers- it's when an animal just feels like there is nothing that can be done and kind of shuts down and stops trying.

And it's, it's easy to feel like, at least, you know, I feel like often it doesn't matter if I'm going to get out there in the street. It doesn't matter if I'm going to vote. I feel helpless.

But I did start my own very small act of protest, my own little protest movement, I guess you could, say four years ago, when Trump was just running for office, along with my father who was a political caricaturist, I created a line of Donald Trump dog poop bags, which I'm still producing and selling. And for the remainder of this month June, 2020, I will be donating all proceeds from the sale of these poop bags to the ACLU you can find them at donaldtrumppoopbags.com.

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