Cofounders in Cars: School For The Dogs' 10th birthday, classes for urban dogs, celebrity dog trainers, shock collars & more

Kate Senisi and Annie Grossman founded School For The Dogs together in 2011. What a decade it's been! Kate, who oversees training and staff at School For The Dogs, is quite busy and can be hard to pin down. But, when trapped in a car with Annie, she agreed to record a casual conversation about the business, the specific challenges faced by city dogs and their owners, and SFTD's unique offerings. She also offered her tempered and reasonable views on two topics about which Annie tends to get highly fired up: Cesar Millan and shock collars.

Played in this episode

Millan discusses shows ABC 7 Chicago 

10 reasons to watch Better Human Better Dog, from Cesar MIllan's Twitter feed

Transcript

[intro and music]

Annie

I am in a position where I have a lot of friends, colleagues, employees, who are amazing dog trainers and really smart, interesting people. And I have tried to get them to come on the podcast, and I've had a lot of trouble doing so.

Now I don't think that's because they don't like me or they don't like the podcast. I think it's because not everyone is as comfortable talking publicly about, I don't know, things in general and maybe dog training in particular in this way that you're doing when you're doing a podcast where you're sort of speaking to an unknown audience of people in what is sort of an intimate way, because we're going straight into your ears.

And a lot of these people who I respect and and love and I've learned from are very careful people who don't necessarily have the time to put together all the notes and thoughts that they might like to have, I guess, on hand before talking to me for a recorded conversation for the podcast.

And, you know, it's something that I think is both a blessing and a curse in my person, is I think I generally lay things out, lay out the things that I'm thinking. I am not a big plan ahead-er. I am rather impulsive. And I think all of these qualities make it possible to produce a podcast.

But also you know, like I talked about last episode, it can leave me feeling rather vulnerable, because I know that I am being very honest about my thoughts and feelings about things, and not everyone is gonna agree with me. But I believe, often, in not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

One thing that my dad used to say that I've really taken to heart and in my work life is that sometimes you got to dare to be lousy, because otherwise it's hard to — especially when you're doing anything remotely creative, it can be hard to produce anything at all.

So, I'm saying all of this because I have found this is not the first time that I've kind of found, I've had to trick someone into being on the podcast by not planning ahead with them. For today's podcast, I'm sharing with you an interview, or really more of just a conversation I had with my long time business partner School for the Dogs’ co-founder Kate Senisi. We were driving home from a wedding we attended over the weekend and trapped in a car together. She agreed to let me record what we talked about.

And I think Kate is just so smart and wonderful. I can't say enough good things about her. We have had, we have developed really, I think, an amazing partnership. I truly think of her and my husband, in different ways, as these wonderful partners in my life that have helped me, I don't know, be a better person.

And Kate is a very careful person. You will hear that in this conversation. I'm like loud and all over the place, and she's much more thoughtful and even tempered. And it's one of the many, many things I love about her.

So yeah, this is our candid car conversation. I have one clip that's in this episode that I actually played also in the last episode. So feel free to skip through that part if you listened to the last episode. And I hope you enjoy. Thanks for listening.

[car background noise]

Annie

So I told you Cesar Millan has a new show, right?

Kate

Yeah. I didn't know that.

Annie

Does it happen that people say, “Oh, you're a dog trainer like Cesar Millan?”

Kate

Less now. It used to happen more frequently.

Annie

Well, it might happen more now that he has a new show, but.

Kate

Maybe.

Annie

Do you think it happens less because people think less about Cesar Millan or do you think it happens less because people know you better?

Kate

I don't know. I just know that I haven't heard that line in a while. And actually one time I mentioned something about saying, “Wow, I'm surprised you didn't bring up The Dog Whisperer,” to a particular group of people. And they were like, who's that? I was like, wow, nevermind.

Annie

Wow. Were they much younger than us?

Kate

Um, no, I think they were about our age.

Annie

Really? Did they grow up under rocks?

Kate

I don’t know, I just don’t think they watched…[inaudible]

Annie

Yeah, but I feel like he's beyond just like a person on a channel in so many ways. But maybe they just… well, so how would you compare the training that you do with the training that Cesar Millan is best known for? If somebody knowing nothing about dog training said, Oh, are you a dog trainer like The Dog Whisperer?

Kate

Yeah. I'd just say it boils down to motivation. So what are you using to motivate the animal? Is it, I want you to not do this because you're afraid of this happening, or is it that you're going to do this because you would like for something good or something pleasant to happen? You can certainly motivate using fear and intimidation. It works. They can backfire sometimes. But generally it works. I’m putting that in air quotes.

But there are just so many unpredictable side effects that it just seems risky, especially with what we know about behavioral fallout, behavioral suppression. It seems risky to go that route when there's a much more sustainable and, I guess, kinder way.

Annie

Yeah. There's two things I've been thinking about in terms of Cesar Millan. One thing that, when I recorded this podcast the other day, this episode of me in a room by myself, thinking about all the ways that I don't like Cesar Millan.

Kate

Did you post that one yet?

Annie

Yeah, I posted it. But at the end of the episode, I was like, I feel really vulnerable because I feel like, it's saying something that like so many people just take for granted that he's a genius, and people love him. And I think it's partially because he has this underdog way about him that makes him lovable.

And succeeding at punishment, in the short term at least, can be quite reinforcing because it makes you feel like you're in control and it makes you feel powerful. Watching someone else do that as well. But I also don't think most people don't think about punishment and reinforcement the way that you and I think about it.

One thing though, I meant to say, that I didn't say is, I think before I knew anything about Cesar Millan, if someone had just pointed out to me, like, look, the techniques that we can use to train dogs can also be used to train dolphins, and nobody ever suggests you need to change your energy and be a more authoritative calm person in order to train a dolphin. Right?

We take for granted that there are techniques to get dolphins to do synchronized swimming. And that's what I think is so compelling about, you know, the work that we do can be used with any animal, and you wouldn't expect the things that he's saying you need to do with, in order to train dogs, to be used with any animal, because…you know what I'm saying?

Kate

Well, would it work to control a dolphin with your body?

Annie

With your calm energy and assertive voice?

Kate

Or with your hands.

Annie

Or with your hands, or with your tools, no. Or chickens, right?

Kate

But that’s why dogs are special. And that's why people think that they're the exception to this rule, because they generally do want to please humans. Right? So…

Annie

Well, we don't know what they want, but we can assume.

Kate

Well, I mean, if you've worked with other species, and you've worked with a dog, generally dogs tend to be more biddable.

Annie

Interested in us.

Kate

Yeah, or more biddable.

Annie

More what? Biddable?

Kate

Biddable. Is that a word, biddable? Like, will you do my bidding? Yes, I invented biddable.

Annie

Right. Well, I mean, partially because we've trained them to work with us.

Kate

Well, yeah, I guess…we’ve domesticated them.

Annie

We’ve trained them to…well, I guess what I mean is like, if you think about like working dogs, for example, have been bred for a specific purpose and a specific quality and part of that is devotedness to us.

But then the other thing I keep thinking about is carrots and sticks, like, and especially in the media with everything that's been going on about, you know, should vaccines be mandated. I feel like I keep hearing people talking about, you know, you can use sticks or you could use carrots. And what they mean is like, you could pay someone to — it's negative reinforcement versus positive reinforcement, right?

Like you could say, Hey, you can't go into restaurants without a vaccine and you can't do this and you can't do that without a vaccine. Like encourage behavior by threatening that you're going to take away access. I mean, obviously it's beyond restaurants. If you want your job, you have to get a vaccine, in some cases. Versus, you know, Hey, we'll give you a hundred dollars if you get a vaccine.

And the thing about using punishment or negative reinforcement versus using positive reinforcement is like nothing endears you to the person who is forcing you to do something or wielding punishment. Nothing makes you want to be around that person, except that dogs are just so fricking forgiving that we can do that a lot. And they still, it still feels like they love us.

Kate

They let it slide.

Annie

They let it slide, right? Yeah. But like, if you use punishment on a chicken, but you also want to spend a lot of time in like close proximity to that chicken, you know, you might get rid of the be–I mean, I don't know why I'm using chickens as an example, but an animal that you can't physically, I mean, I guess you can physically control a chicken.

Kate

How about a cow.

Annie

A cow. I don't know! I've never done any cow training. I've done some chicken training.

Kate

I never done cow training either but they seem like kind of slow moving and maybe a little bit difficult to motivate. I don't know.

Annie

Well, if you want an animal who essentially is going to be like, literally in close proximity to you a lot of the time, and looking to you for food, shelter, direction, enrichment, et cetera. Like if you want an animal who is basically like not there by any choice of their own, generally speaking, right? Like we put dogs into homes, they're forced into their position as dogs.

As our little captured animals, we want them to feel good about being around us. And as soon as you start using force and punishment, it can make one feel not so psyched to be around the person who is supposedly the caretaker. But anyway.

Kate

Right. I agree. Just going back to feeling vulnerable about talking about Cesar Millan, I think it's much bigger than that. And maybe the focus should just be like type of training, this type of training versus this type of training. Right? Pros and cons. Because he's just one person.

Annie

But sometimes I feel like that type of training that we're talking about, the type of training that talks about these, using energy —

Kate

It goes by many different names.

Annie

Well, if you call it energy, which is a word that he's always using, you know, it's not like a measurable kind of energy, right? It's not, it's not something that you can quantify

Kate

Honestly. I don't know what he's up to nowadays. I really haven't…didn’t he put out a new book?

Annie

Well, I am not totally up on him, but I did watch the trailer for the show. And I listened to an interview that he did, which I can share with you. And I also shared…just listen to the podcast episode rather than me telling you! [laughs] I shared the, you want to hear the stuff I did it? it's only gonna take a couple minutes.

[clip plays]

Cesar Millan

Hi I’m Cesar Millan and here are 10 reasons to get excited for my brand new show, Better Human Better Dog. Dogs are mirrors of our expectations.

Right now. I want you to take a look at Mr. Loretta. We're going to go for a walk with the chickens and the dogs.

You are all over the place.

The most powerful sense of dog has is his nose. You'll guide the nose and the dog will follow.

Dog owner:

Hey! No, no!

Cesar

Yes. Gonna work on the fixation, but that's why it's so important for you guys to also fix your energy.

That's a perfect state of mind.

Come on.

[laughing]

This is the way you celebrate with a winning dog. Yeah!

Dog owner:

She’s doing great.

Cesar

You're doing great.

[clip ends]

Annie

So, yeah, I know you were driving so you could see that, but there, I mean, you could hear it. I don't know what you can tell from it, but–

Kate

I could hear it.

Annie

You could hear it. There's a part you didn't see where he dresses up like a hot dog. And then there's a part where he's doing some dance moves that are, he looks pretty good actually.

Kate

Nice.

Annie

And then there's parts where he's — Ugh! But that's part of what's bugs me. You were just saying that there's nothing wrong with trying to make people better in addition to making the dogs better. And that seems like what the gist of it is.

Kate

Yeah. It seems like it, better people, better dogs? Did I see that on the screen or something? Or did I make that up? Is that the line?

Annie

Yeah, no, no. The show is called Better Human Better Dog.

Kate

Better human, better dog. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Annie

Well, doesn't it seem like a long path to take, though for solving a lot of the problems that we deal with? Like having to change stuff about the human. You know what I would like to have a show on…

Kate

Well, you do have to change as a human. You have to be —

Annie

You have to change as a human, but I would like a show that it's like Hey, here's what we can do to help your dog by using what we know about behavior and dog behavior specifically, how we can change behavior with positive reinforcement–

Kate

It’s complicated, and TV is made for simpler ideas —

Annie

But I'm saying, that's what you could — Hey, look, we changed the situation with your dog. Let's look at how we can change the situation in your life, using what we've learned! Rather than what this is like. That would be to me, the better human better dog show, something with that title could be called, like smarter dog, better human…

Kate

I mean, to me TV is like pop culture, and they over-simplify pretty much everything.

Annie

Right. But I think that could be oversimplified in its own direction. But to me, like, this is the direction of like, in order for you to help your dog, you first need to help yourself. And I, I get what’s sort of sticky about that, but it annoys me because I think like — like yesterday we were talking and you were talking about how you need to make things as simple as possible for a client. But you want to make it as simple as possible for them to help their dog. And I don't think trying to redo who you are as a person…

I think it's all about like, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I think he's about becoming a more positive person yourself, and more…I don't think he uses the word domineering, but like more confident. Let's — wait, listen to this other clip where he talks more —

Kate

Let me say something. We’re talking about “energy.” This phrase energy that keeps getting bounced around? That’s an oversimplification. Like, yes, sure. Your body language, which I think is what people are referring to when they say your “energy” around a dog is important. And it can be very useful to examine that and potentially change something about your body language, depending on what's going on. But again, it's an oversimplification. It's one piece of the puzzle.

Annie

But couldn't you fake that?

Kate

Yeah, of course.

Annie

I mean, God, I know dog trainers who are like, you know, insecure people who are on lots of medications, and have a lot of life problems.

Kate

Are you saying they’re insecure around dogs?

Annie

No, just generally insecure people who like probably would benefit from meditation and a yoga practice or whatever, who we can teach. We can teach those people how to train a dog. Because you can train a dog that's in a different room from you. It's not necessarily all about what you're doing with your body. I mean, can't you think of a million–

Kate

I don’t know about that part. I am more concerned that this type of training is A, too simplistic, and B, encouraging people to physically challenge or confront their dogs, which can go very wrong. It can be dangerous. That's what I'm more concerned about, personally.

The part about, “You need to improve yourself.” Okay, great. I don't know, that doesn't rub me the wrong way.

Annie

I mean, I agree with you about the stuff that annoys you, but also among the things that annoys me is that way of going about it because it seems like self-help to help a dog human doing human self-help in order to help the dog in the way that he's suggesting, like deep breathing basically, I feel like is a long route.

As a dog trainer, I mean, think about all the situations that have nothing to do with people. Like, think about all the training issues, for instance, you know, you can move a —

Kate

What’s a training issue that has nothing to do with people? Like a behavior issue?

Annie

Like a dog who's stressed out about being on the streets of New York City. Okay? Which is many dogs, right. Like, Ginger is a dog who, and I've talked about Ginger before. Ginger, you know, with Anna and Alan, like, I don't think Ginger pays attention to Alan and Anna because of their confident body language as much as like, they have figured out she's happier when we don't have her out on the New York City streets. So let's minimize how much she has to be out on the city streets.

To me there's some dog training that’s like that. The dog that's freaking out about living in New York city with people, who can go live with people somewhere where there's more space, for example–

Kate

Well, that isn’t really training.

Annie

But it's a changing of behavior. The dog’s behavior is going to be changed based on the environment that you put the dog in.

Kate

Right. But that's not going to be changed in the city.

Annie

No, but you’re–

Kate

So it’s avoidance of the city, urban anxiety. I'm not saying it's not valid. I'm just saying it's not training the dog to be better about the city. It's just avoid the trigger. Or minimizing the trigger.

Annie

I mean, I know what you mean. It's not part of like, if you define training as teaching a dog to feel and behave differently. But I feel like as a dog trainer, sometimes that is the answer. Don't you feel like that? Like, how can I be happier and live a happier life — how can I give this dog that life that's happier than the life I'm giving him? Like, sometimes that's rehoming the dog or in Anna and Alan's case, they did not rehome the dog, but when they are in New York City with the dog, they have figured out how to arrange the environment in a way that's going to help the dog be super happy, as opposed to —

Kate

Right, but that will be up to the client.

Annie

But like with ginger, for example. Anna is an excellent trainer, do you fault Anna for not training Ginger to walk outside?

Kate

No, that's what I'm saying. It's up to the trainer or the guardian or the client. Right? And their dog. If that is fine with them, then that's a fine solution. There are some clients who would say, no, I want to continue with counterconditioning and desensitizing my dog to being okay outside for certain amounts of time. And then in that case, that wouldn't be the resolution that they would want.

Annie

Well, for a dog like Ginger, I think that could not be done probably without medication.

Kate

Well then that's a separate topic. That's a whole other can of worms to get

Annie

Okay. That's true. It's a whole other can of worms. Let's stick with a can of worms that we already opened. You're absolutely right. See, this is why…

Kate

You are like so combative on these things. My God, I can’t get a word in edgewise.

Annie

I'm sorry.

Kate

Are you getting heated about Cesar Millan?

Annie

Yes!

Kate

Why?! What is it about him that bugs you so much?

Annie

That's what I'm trying to express on this podcast episode, Kate!

Kate

His fame and fortune?

Annie

No, no. I mean, do I wish I had as much money as he did, I guess? Yeah, sure. I would buy a nice house in the suburbs. [laughs]

Kate

Is he rich? I didn’t know he was rich.

Annie

You didn't know he was rich.

Kate

No. I don't really pay that much attention to him or, I don't know, I guess whatever’s going on with him.

Annie

I mean, I don't know. I haven't looked at his checkbook, but I think he's doing pretty well. I mean, he has a dog psychology center on many acres of land in California, and we don't. I mean, so am I jealous of that, like do I wish we could afford to have like some massive facility where we could have people come and stay with us overnight with their dogs so that we could help them in their dogs as much as possible, and solve problems and do fun stuff? Yeah, I guess I'm jealous. I'd like that. Wouldn't you like that?

Kate

I guess so. I'm pretty happy where we are.

Annie

I know. Well, I'm, I'm not saying that we don't have our own space and our own amazing thing we do. I'm just saying, like, it would be cool if it was like huge, which I guess is something he has. But it's not about jealousy. No, I know. I feel annoyed. I feel like the stuff that he is all about is like…like if you and I were devoting our lives to evolution, and to studying the work of Darwin and helping people understand that. And then the thing most synonymous with the thing that we are studying was all about creationism. Like, wouldn't that be kind of frustrating? That's how I think of it.

Kate

Yeah. That's the story of television though, right? Right?

Annie

Well, I guess you're like stuck on the medium. I'm sorry I'm interrupting you! But I don't care about the medium. I mean, it's not about television. It's my podcast. I can interrupt. It's my car.

Kate

You can just rant to yourself then.

Annie

Yeah. All right. I'll shut up. I promise. Okay. You go.

Kate

[laughing] What am I supposed to be commenting on? I just think if we're talking about methodology, which I think seems more fruitful to me than talking about one person's — like, yeah, I get that he has a wide reach, but it seems more fruitful to talk about methodology.

We're talking about resolving behavior conditions like aggression, anxiety, right? Those are the big things that people — It's not really about like, oh, I can teach a dog to nose target. I think pretty much every trainer would agree they would use positive reinforcement to train hand targeting. Right? Nose targeting.

The bottom line is like, it's not easy to resolve these behavioral conditions. Right? So anybody who's saying like, “I've got this magic bullet,” or “you can send your dog to me for a week!” Or, “I can fix this in three hours,” just be wary. Cause it's probably not going to happen.

And the fallout of what that person may do could be something that lasts forever. It could make the behavior much, much worse. Make your dog more dangerous. Hold on. The GPS is talking. Lost my train of thought now. Oh-it's not easy. I mean, just, look at humans and look at human behavior conditions, right? People go to therapy for years. Maybe they take behavioral medications for years for things like anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress. Right.

So we know it's complicated. We know it takes time, unfortunately. So if you're working with a behavioral consultant or someone who knows what they're doing, they're going to be honest with you about that. It doesn't mean that it can't be done. It's not possible really to solve complex behavioral problems in three hours, or a day, or even like sending a dog away for a week. It's still even has to be maintained.

Annie

But what if you as a trainer changed your energy?

Kate

I mean, based on what I just said, what do you think?

Annie

I'm asking the questions.

Kate

No, I don't think that can solve a complicated behavior problems. Maybe it's one component in a particular case. Maybe teaching a human good leash handling skills will help with the way that their dog reacts when they're walking them, or doesn't react. For sure. But it's one component. Of many components.

Annie

Does energy relate to leash handling? Do you need good energy in order to have good leash handling skills?

Kate

I don't know what good energy is. I guess you need to define that. Or Cesar Millan needs to define what energy is. Is it like, is it my vibe? Is it my body language? Is it what's going on in my brain? Can you, do look at me and see an aura? I mean, people do that, right? They look at you and they're like, this is your aura. This is your energy. I don't really know how to define or measure that. So I don't know how to answer that question.

Annie

I want to play you this other clip because I think he talks a little bit more about what energy is. Hold on.

Kate

Great.

[clip plays]

Cesar

Hi Jennifer.

Jennifer

Hi, how are you?

Cesar

Good, good. How's New York?

Jennifer

Oh, it's great. So congratulations on your new show.

Cesar

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Jennifer

So, Better Human Better Dog, how would you say this series maybe differs from Dog Whisperer, which a lot of people remember you from?

Cesar

Well, Dog Whisperer, I used to go to people’s home, you know, and now people are coming to my land, my Dog Psychology Center, 43 acres of magic. And so I have my own area where I can help people immediately practice, you know, all the activities, stretch, walk, run, rest. And sometimes they sleep, they do stay at the ranch, because I want to make sure that as soon as they wake up, they learn about the formula, the rituals and the symbols, you know?

So now I have a place where people can stay over. And so they can submerge themselves in my philosophy, you know, and with my community and with my animals. And so people just learn how do I do things? Why my energy is always a certain way, calm, comfort, love, and joy. Why I always practice exercise, then mental stimulation, then affection. Why I follow that formula. You know?

So I bring in people into my land now with my community and my animals and my family. So it’s going to be completely different. It’s definitely, it’s like when people go to India, they go over there so they can practice that. So people coming to my ranch to submerge themselves and just, and just to be free.

Jennifer

So what kind of issues are most coming to your ranch? Is there one in particular that seems to plague people?

Cesar

Well, you know, I’m known to be the guy who can help you with aggression. I know I am known…it’s only three side effects that dog can develop, is aggression, fear, or ignoring you. You know, ignoring you is like, Oh my dog doesn’t listen to me, he runs through the streets and chases the squirrels and things like that. That’s, that’s dangerous to the dog, you know, and annoying to the human.

But definitely, aggression is definitely a behavior that is dangerous to society. So the first episode, we’re dealing with a dog named Goliath. His owner has neurological problems such as seizures. And so, when the paramedics come to him, Goliath becomes overprotective, rightfully so, you know? And so we are going to turn, actually, we turned that dog into a dog that can now be able to help his human into a service dog. So now Goliath the pit bull who was showing signs of aggression, we turned him into a paramedic.

Jennifer

Wow. Do you feel any dog can be rehabilitated into a good pet, or are there some that are just even you find that you can’t help?

Cesar

No, many times it’s not if the dog can’t change. Many times, it’s if the human is willing to do the work. And the truth is, many times the energy of the human is too, too soft for the dog. So it’s not compatible, you know. So, many people rescue dogs for the wrong reasons. And that’s why it’s very important for people to understand energy.

You know, most of the friends that you have are compatible to you. That’s why you get along. And so, and sometimes family members, you’re not compatible, so you don’t get along with them. You see it? So, that energetic understanding is very important, so you never have to worry about ‘can I ever change the dog.’ Cause your energy just by being a little stronger than the dog, automatically gives the dog a sense of direction. So your energy have to be calm-confident in order for the dog to share calm-open-minded.

Jennifer

Well, what do you hope people can take away from watching it?

Cesar

Oh my God! Fully understanding that we don’t have problems with mother nature, in this case, with a dog. The formula, how to achieve happiness with a dog is learning how to connect, learning how to communicate, learning how to achieve the relationship that we are all looking for, which is trust, respect, and love. Imagine a world full of trust, respect, and love. It just, it would be super positive. We’ll be a better planet.

You know, that’s what I’m saying, Better human better dog, because the human needs to achieve this calm, comfort, love, and joy. The human needs to achieve trust, respect, and love. The human needs to do exercise, discipline, affection, body, mind, heart. So once you accomplish that, and then you can go to the Olympics, you see what I mean? That only the people that prepare themselves to be, you know, positive, calm, confident, fate, and all of that. They go to the Olympics. It’s also, those are the better humans, right? To represent in the Olympics.

So in this case, you know, how you become a better human, it’s just about your energy becoming calm, comfort, love, and joy, regardless if you don’t have money, right? Cause this is not about money, fame and power. Animals don’t care about money, fame and power. Animals can live with homeless people. Animals can live with handicapped people. Animals can live in the jungle of the Amazon.

So it’s not about the wealth that we humans think we must have to have a dog. Cause a lot of people say, oh, I don’t have a house, oh I don’t — but homeless people don’t have a house. Oh, I don’t have a big backyard. It doesn’t matter. That’s not what makes a dog happy. What makes a dog happy is you know how to connect, communicate and have a natural, simple, profound relationship.

[clip ends]

Annie

Okay, tell me your thoughts.

Kate

He's changing, it sounds like, his like sort of phrasing and, I guess, catch phrases, like…

Annie

Calm, confident, love, and joy?

Kate

Well like relationship-based training. Like, you could make a case like that that’s the kind of training we do too. So I don't know. I think the tide is shifting. I think people are starting to recognize that there are better and more sustainable ways to work with dogs that have behavior problems.

And that's why I think a lot of trainers who may have called themselves balanced or aversive or whatever — we might label them as aversive. But I think they're changing their marketing verbiage, like image to reflect, I guess, what is maybe a more savvy client? Although then that makes it a little more difficult for the prospective client to figure out what kind of methods people are going to use.

But I don't know. I think it shows that the tide is changing a little bit. Which is a good thing.

Annie

But you also, you said the word mumbo-jumbo before that.

Kate

Phrase. The phrase mumbo-jumbo.

Annie

You're right. Mumbo-jumbo’s probably not a word. What did you mean by that?

Kate

I just, I don't want to speak ill of another person. I think that's his jam. That's fine. I get it. I don't know that there was a lot of really particularly helpful, salient amount of details in there that somebody could really take away and implement.

Annie

There are not a lot of action steps. That's how I think of it.

Kate

Right. That’s why I said mumbo-jumbo.

Annie

Well, like if I tell you, you need to be a more calm, confident, loving, joyful person, like…

Kate

What is step one? I don't know. I think if we're looking at the silver lining, it's that relationship-based training is being more widely adopted. And hopefully that means that alpha rolling and these old school confrontational techniques are starting to go away.

Because I don't know how you could possibly argue that Alpha rolling a dog or zapping them with your fingers is relation-based and is going to encourage trust between human and dog. Right? So I would hope that means that he's not doing at least the confrontational techniques anymore, although I'm not sure.

Annie

I don't know either. I haven't seen the show. But relationship isn't necessarily a good relationship. I mean, you can have a relationship with a parent who spanked you.

Kate

Yeah, but I would bet that by saying relationship-based training, that's probably leaning towards developing a bond with trust. And so it's implied that it's meant to be a good relationship. But you're right. It's not “good relationship based training.”

Annie

I've had plenty of bad relationships. [laughs]

Kate

I know.

Annie

But, “relationship.” It's a funny euphemism because relationships are not necessarily good. But he also, in the other clip I played, you see these people yelling, “No, no, no” to their dog.

Kate

Yeah. Well, some people would argue that's effective communication.

Annie

Well, I would say it's effective if you only have to do it once. If you're having to like yell, No, no, no, at your dog all the time–

Kate

Right, and this is where the nuanced educational background comes into play, like where you can explain that to a client. Right? If you understand learning theory. I mean, it's not really that nuanced, but…

Annie

I hear mumbo-jumbo, cause I'm like, yes, of course animals can live in the Amazon. You know?

Kate

Right. I don't know what that really has to do with anything.

Annie

And then he's talking about homeless people. I don't understand that part.

Kate

Homeless people can have dogs too. And they do.

Annie

Oh, is that what he's saying? And that they can, and that they can have dogs who can listen to them?

Kate

Yeah.

Annie

So you can be a homeless person, but…

Kate

I’ve seen some really well-adjusted dogs living with people on the streets.

Annie

Oh no, I don't doubt that at all. I don't doubt that at all. I'm just trying to understand what the point is when he's saying that in the same breath as, there are animals in the Amazon.

Kate

I think you should interview him for this podcast. You can ask him these questions yourself.

Annie

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if he'll come on. Maybe I should, maybe I should ask.

Kate

I would ask. It could be, it could be a learning moment for you and him. If we do want to change other people's minds, it has to start with some kind of like outreach. Right. Just a discussion.

Annie

If you could interview him and ask one question, what would that question be?

Kate

I don't know. I have to think about that. I don't have one at the top of my head. I mean, I guess I would just ask if he's still using the confrontational techniques, like alpha rolling, pinning and you know, using like the hand, the bite thing? Like take your fingers and jab a dog in the neck. I would just want to know if he's still using those techniques. And if so, then I don't know. Maybe then I'd have a followup question.

Annie

And if he said yes, what would your follow-up question be?

Kate

I don't know. I haven't gotten that far.

[laughing]

Annie

Well, the other clip I played in the episode I did, which I won't force you to listen to, is the interview he did years ago with Alan Titchmarsh, and Alan Titchmarsh says like, well, you use shock collars with dogs, you hit them. And he's like, no, it's not a hit, it's just a tap. And, Titchmarsh is like, I wouldn't want to be tapped like that. Remember that video where he's kicking dogs?

Kate

No.

Annie

There was this compilation video actually. I think it's still on YouTube, I think.

Kate

Yeah. I mean that stuff's like seriously unpopular now. I really doubt that he's still doing that. I can't imagine. It's not cool to kick dogs, guys. I mean, it never was, but..

Annie

Yeah, you think so? I don't know. I feel like we're in a bubble of positive reinforcement training.

Kate

No, I feel like, at least nowadays people are using shock collars. So it's like, at least they are not part of the equation. The dog doesn't really understand the human’s holding the remote. Right? But I mean, it's just like, it's ridiculous how easy it is for a dog to just immediately become afraid of someone if they're kicked. So I don't know why, how would you ever be able to establish trust and a bond with an animal if you're physically hitting or kicking them?

I think that the shock collar works in the way that it does, because it creates something aversive for the animal, but you're not really associated with it.

Annie

Well, you could be.

Kate

You could be. Yeah. If you're not using it correctly, for sure. I’m not pro-shock collar, by the way. I'm just saying it's, I guess, a little bit better in a way, than somebody kicking a dog. Cause at least the human is maybe somewhat removed from that equation. And you have at least a better chance of maybe trying to rebuild a bond that you might've damaged if you've used a piece of equipment like that, than if you had kicked your dog.

Annie

I see what you're saying. But I think there are probably a lot of people who have done and/or do both. No?

Kate

Yeah. Maybe. I mean, I see, I still see leash jerks a lot in my neighborhood. Well, I wouldn't say a lot, but every once in a while leash jerks. Hear yelling. I haven't seen anyone kick a dog. I don't think.

Annie

How do you, how — I know this is not about Cesar Millan, but since we're talking about controversial subjects, and I still have you trapped in the car, how would you deal with explaining to somebody the problems about electric fences?

Kate

The problems? Or you mean, if a client said, I want to install electric fence, or I have an electric fence? What's the context, what do you mean?

Annie

I have a piece of land. I don't want to put up a fence, so I'm going to put up an electric fence. I mean an invisible fence.

Kate

So unfortunately a lot of towns have rulings against physical fences. So for some people at that's not a choice.

Annie

Well I just, I just don't like the aesthetic of putting up a fence, and uh, I don't want to pay for it.

Kate

Right. Well, a physical fence will be much safer, A. Dogs can easily just absorb the shock and run through an electric fence. I've seen it happen before, or I've heard of it happening.

Annie

I’ve heard of it happening and the neighbor's dog is killed.

Kate

Right. I mean, if you really were to teach the dog to hear the warning beep and come back to you? Like, let's say you use positive reinforcement to train that? I wouldn't have the biggest problem with it, but I really think what I would focus on is that a physical fence is honestly much safer, and that there are other ways that you could have the dog out.

Like you could have the dog on a tie out. The dog should, in my opinion, be supervised anyway when they're outside, if they're outside, like running the fence line all day, stalking prey. They're doing things that you have no control over. And you are much, much less valuable in their world than all of those stimuli that they're paying attention to outside.

So it's also a training issue, if you want, like your dog to be compliant or deferential or look to you, you want to have control over things in the environment. So you don't want them sitting out there doing that all day. So if it's supervised, then you know what’s the argument against like a tie out or a long leash or some other way that they can be free without being confined by a fence.

Annie

Do you think it's possible that an electric fence can cause a dog to be triggered by unusual things in the environment, or people coming into the home, or cause the dog to bark incessantly?

Kate

That’s the risk, right? We don't know. Like, yeah, for some dogs, they may live with an electric fence for five years and have no behavior problems. Other dogs, sometimes we learn and it's pretty clear that the problem was exacerbated or potentially even created by the association of being shocked or feeling pain with the appearance of a stimuli.

Annie

Yeah. I mean, and that's part of what's scary to me about it, is you don't know what stimuli your dog is associating with that shock.

Kate

It's a huge risk. That's all I'll say.

Annie

And it could make something like barking worse, and you might not even know the stimuli. Because it's possible your dog heard something that you couldn't hear, a dog barking far off that you couldn't hear, at the same time that the dog got shocked. Or the UPS man, or a child running by.

Kate

.Right. All kinds of associations that we could come up with.

Annie

You wouldn’t explain that to someone though? If they were asking about shock collars and getting an electric fence?

Kate

Well, I would probably start with the safety thing. And then if they were still stuck on that, I'd get into the association thing. Yeah. I mean, right? It depends on the client and it depends on how much time I want to spend talking to them about this. And if they're already pretty much bought into reward based training, and then I can just explain the safety issue to them, I would probably start there.

We talked about this yesterday. It's like, amount of information in my head? I can never disseminate all that information in like an hour, or an hour and a half. Right. So I have to really pick and choose, and start with what I think might be the easiest way to get someone to either do or not do something. And then if I still need additional support I can, you know, think of all the other reasons why it might be important not to do something, or to do something.

Annie

And well, to go back to Cesar Millan and my beef, that is less beefy to you, is that I don't feel like he's giving clear instructions on how to actually improve your energy and be a better person–

Kate

So that's what it is. So we've gotten to the bottom of it. And it only took us an hour.

Annie

Well, yeah, I mean, he's not disseminating things into —

Kate

Clear, concise action items, or steps. Yeah. Well maybe that's your interview. That right there is step one. What do I do to become a calm, assertive or whatever his catchphrase is. Calm-assertive?

Annie

I don't know. In that clip, he keeps talking about calm, confidence, love, and joy. He has these clumps of words that he says together like that. Like, I guess they're his taglines. There was another one he kept saying in that bit. But calm, confidence, love and joy.

Kate

It’s catchy.

Annie

Well, I mean, like I think our training can help people be more calm and confident and have more love and joy in their life. I would just never like say those words to try and sell people on…

Kate

Maybe that's why he's a millionaire.

Annie

[laughing] Yeah, right!

Kate

We need some better catch phrases.

Annie

Do we have any catch phrases? Eat your homework.

Kate

Train with your brain. I’ve heard that one before.

Annie

Train without pain using your brain.

Kate

Yeah. Definitely someone else came up with that. I'm not taking credit for that.

Annie

Me.

Kate

Oh. Really?

Annie

I think it was me. Train without pain. Train without pain, using your brain.

Kate

How about just train using your brain?

Annie

Brain train, train brain. That was our first, when we first put up flyers 10 years ago. It's our 10th anniversary, Kate.

Kate

That's what we should be talking about.

Annie

Our 10th anniversary?

Kate

We should be celebrating, not focusing on–

Annie

Okay, well let's celebrate. Say something celebratory.

Kate

We're here. We're about to go through the Holland tunnel and we may lose you guys. So sorry, we may have to end this podcast early.

Annie

[laughing] Say something positive and nice about 10 years of School for the Dogs. Of putting up with me.

Kate

Okay.

Annie

[laughs] It doesn't have to be about me.

Kate

Well, I'm going to say, I think for both of us, we've come a long way, both in terms of our own personal growth and development. And then also I think as a business, as partners together. And I think we have a wonderful partnership. We support each other. There are a lot of things I don't like to do that you love to do, which makes me very happy. And I believe vice versa.

Annie

Vice versa.

Kate

If I may speak for you. And I look forward to another 10 years with you, pahtner. How’s that? Is that the nicest thing I've ever said about us? Possibly. It must be the after wedding glow.

Annie

[laughs] All right. I think maybe we should end things there. I've annoyed you enough.

Kate

Okay. Well, I feel like we only talked about Cesar Millan. Was that the point of this one?

Annie

No, I mean, I don't have a point.

Kate

Just put that part at the end.

Annie

Well, say some other things.

Kate

Oh, well I can say some other things.

Annie

You could talk about something else if you want. We can talk about meta signals. No, but you could say some other things about what you've learned or where you want things to go.

Kate

I'd like for us to really focus on very urban-specific dog training could be kind of our niche. And It has been our niche. I just feel like, I feel like dog trainers, like whenever we go anywhere else outside of New York City, looking at a dog training facility or just talking to those trainers. It's just so different what they're doing and what they're able to do with more space. And I think one of the challenges, and I think one of the things we do best is basically adapt training for urban dwelling dogs. And it's like, it's just a whole different game.

Annie

How would you describe what they have that we don't have? Or vice versa?

Kate

Space.

Annie

Right, but how, why is space important? Asks someone who knows nothing about what you do. Pretend.

Kate

So space is important because every dog, well, and every human, has a social bubble. So like a bubble in which I am comfortable having things outside of the bubble that maybe when they get in the bubble, I'm not so comfortable. And unfortunately for–

Annie

Like a distance.

Kate

Yeah.

Annie

Not like an energetic bubble.

Kate

I see where you're going with that.

Annie

No, no, seriously,

Kate

Yeah. Like a threshold. But I think of it as like a circle around me. And most dogs, I don't know what the average comfort level distance is, it's probably 10 feet or something from like, you know, maybe new people, new dogs. And unfortunately living in New York City, that's just constantly violated. I mean, you're within like two to three feet of people and other dogs just for pretty much most of the time you're outside with the dog. So that's one thing is the space.

And then also the saturation. So the amount of dogs, the amount of people that you encounter. If you're out with a dog you know on a walk in a suburb, you may encounter like two or three other people, and maybe one or two dogs. So it makes it much easier to control your dog's distance to those different stimuli, and also their response. And, there's only two or three for you to practice with.

Versus in the city walking around, that may be like 20 or 30 people. And then maybe like five dogs that you encounter on a walk. It’s just, you're constantly having to scan the environment, observe your dog, and basically work or kind of train with your dog every time you're outside. And that's a lot for people to keep up with. And you don't have as much control over the distance, of course, at which you can be near other people or other dogs or things in the environment.

Annie

Right. Well said. Also, well, it's interesting that people just can't keep up with it because what you're saying is like, you have to bring your dog outside.

Kate

Yeah. Unless you have a little backyard.

Annie

You have to bring your dog outside and it's a lot of work to make sure that they are doing all the things you want them to do behavior wise, and not doing the things you don't want them to do behavior wise outside on the street, on leash, because there's so many unknown variables.

So it's like, you have variables you can't control. You have the need to be really focusing the whole time and rewarding good behaviors with whatever you're using as a reward, be that going in the other direction or food or to play, or just verbal praise or whatever.

And you have to be doling that out a lot. And you have to be figuring out what the correct reinforcer is in that situation. There's so much to consider.

Kate

Yeah. It's always changing.

Annie

And on top of that, not only can you not control the environment, but you can't control distances the same way you can in an outdoor environment environment in the suburbs or wherever. Maybe like if you're in a big parking lot. Sure, there's still variables there you can't control. But those variables are going to be at a greater distance.

Kate

That's right. Yeah. I'm actually a big fan of using parking lots. Well, in Brooklyn we have parking lots. Manhattan, we don't really have parking lots to use. But in where I live in Bushwick, there are quite a few parking lots and probably I'm sure in other neighborhoods, in Brooklyn and Queens, and those can be really helpful for like setups. For training setups, instead of just working on the sidewalk. Basically.

What else do I have to say about urban dog training? I don't know. I think that's pretty much it also, I mean maybe, maybe someday someone will do studies on processing auditory and visual stimuli at such a high rate and see how that affects– I mean, realistically, I have to imagine that if you're looking around and seeing a lot of things and you're hearing a lot of things and you're navigating how close you come to people and not walking into this tree, like, it's gotta be pretty taxing on your brain.

And I'm guessing that probably like adrenaline and cortisol levels are higher because you're just, there's so much going on that you have to be processing. I wonder if that has an effect maybe on humans and on dogs, as far as just our baseline level of stress being in an urban environment or in an environment with such a large amount of stimuli. Somebody should do a study on that. Maybe they have.

Annie

Maybe they already have.

Kate

Yeah. I feel like actually, maybe there have been some studies in humans urban dwelling humans. I don't know that there have been any for dogs yet.

Annie

Well, I'm sure also just some of that stuff has been studied in smaller slices. Like how repetitive, loud music or repetitive loud sounds make an animal feel, versus more calm sounds. Yeah, you're right. I think urban living is its own– Welcome to New York, it says. And I think our Sidewalks Psychos class is pretty special.

Kate

And Stranger Danger is coming out too. That's gonna be fun.

Annie

Do you want to explain what Stranger Danger is? Talk about what that class is, and then you can also talk about what Sidewalk Psychos is.

Kate

Okay. Stranger Danger, it's brand new. It's the first time I'm running it, it should be fun.

Annie

It's in person or online?

Kate

It’s in person, of course, because we need strangers.

Annie

Will anybody be dressed as a hot dog?

Kate

I don't think we have a hot dog uniform. No, but probably some hats, maybe some fake beards. Yeah. So Stranger Danger is a class designed for, it's only up to four dogs, and it's designed for dogs who either maybe bark, lunge or growl at strangers on the street or entering their apartment.

And it allows the guardians to practice techniques in a controlled environment, which then they can transfer to the streets, and/or in their home and their apartment when their dog needs to be around someone that's unfamiliar. Or in some cases, even familiar people, if they're outside of the dog's social circle, they may also react this way to them.

So that's that class. And we're going to have, I'm going to be the first stranger, as the trainer. And then we'll have, I think, two or three others, probably just working on the top of the stairs. If you haven't been to our training center, the ground floor, the biggest classroom room, there is a set of stairs going down there and just having someone appear halfway down the stairs will probably be a lot for most of these dogs.

So we'll start there and if we can progress to having them come further down the stairs, we will. It'll just probably depend on who's enrolled in the class and what the dogs can handle. We'll go at their pace.

Annie

It has to be a requirement, however, for dogs to be able to be in a room with other dogs, no?

Kate

Correct, although they will be in pens. So the set up will be similar to Sidewalks Psychos. They'll have some visual barriers set up. So they won't really have to be looking at the other dogs. They'll just have to be in the same room with the other dogs.

Annie

Is the class full yet?

Kate

I think so. Yeah.

Annie

Cause I would love for Poppy to do that class, perhaps with Jason, but if it's full.

Kate

Did you not know that that was a class?

Annie

I did. I just, I just never want to sign up for them because I don't want to take spots for other people, but maybe we could stream some of it or something like that?

Kate

I’ll just teach you the same skills, once a week!

Annie

No!

Kate

No, you want to be in the class? Let’s see maybe someone will drop out, maybe I can squeeze five dogs in. Let me see who's on the roster. And if it's an easy or if it's like familiar dogs maybe we can squeeze a fifth in.

Annie

I just wish we could like stream more classes. I think that would be cool.

Kate

That would be great. Give away our classes for free? Or for paid, you mean?

Annie

For free or for paid. I don't know. In some manner. And how would you describe Sidewalk Psychos to someone who does not know what Sidewalk Psychos is?

Kate

That class, Sidewalk Psychos, is designed for dogs who may be overly reactive when they see another dog. So that might look like staring, barking, growling, lunging, spinning on the leash. And similar setup there, it's four dogs only, controlled setup. And we start with the dogs just working on having them relax in the same room as each other, and then add in some visual contact, and then adding it in the dogs are sitting and standing, looking at each other. And then walking is the final challenge there.

Annie

Inside or outside?

Kate

Level one is inside, level two, which we haven't had in a while, is outside. We're working on getting that going again. And level two actually is really, really a lot of fun, because not only do we, well, historically we have gone outside as well.

But we talk more about greetings, facilitating greetings in the class, one-on-one potentially. Maybe some play if it’s appropriate, or just interactions. Some other form of like successful interactions between the dogs. Maybe it's just walking, parallel walking, walking past each other. Maybe it's mutual sniffing if they're not interested in play. Basically other ways for dogs to be close to dogs, have a good time and not have to do the face-to-face greeting, if they're not good at that.

That's all I have to say about that.

Annie

[laughs] Okay. Anything else you want to say about anything?

Kate

Thanks for having me on your podcast. I probably do have more to say, I’m just…driving.

Annie

Well, I mean, you're welcome to be on the podcast. Like every week. I would say you're never not welcome. It's just hard to pin you down.

Kate

I know.

Annie

Well maybe we just need to go road tripping more. Huh?

Kate

Alright. I'm stopping the directions.

Annie

Okay. Well I'm stopping recording. Okay. Talk to you soon.

Kate

Bye.

[outro and music]